h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

No, I don't think your memory is faulty, Lemon. Della also doesn't think that George Bush or Justin the Preacher are Christians, though this is certainly how they identify themselves.

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If it has not already become pretty much meaningless.

az

At this point, I'm defining Christian as a person who identifies themself as one and considers most or all of the New Testament to be a sacred text.

"If there's more than one god of nearly equal power, we may have a choice of which one we approve of and will support. "

If there's more than one, LB, there's no rule we only have to have a relationship with one, any more than we only have to have one friend in this life.

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Good point. Darn. I can't stop thinking from a monotheistic standpoint even though I never was one.

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Right, well, that sounds about as random and subjective as any other definition of Christian I've heard, so why the heck not?

az

Well, no, they aren't a large group, but there are a lot of them around if you know where to look...
Talk of a permanent Hell is a mistranslation of the Bible verses in question, I learned that back in the early '90s. (On another thread I posted a link to a site and article about that specifically.) For some reason, many (but by no means all) of the Christians I have come across on h2g2 seem to be what I might term fundamentalist, and don't believe in evolution - believe me, *that* is a minority view! Yet, they seem over-represented here, and I wonder why... Probably 90% of Christians, especially Catholics (which I am not) and Christians in general in New Zealand, have no issues regarding science/evolution etc. I want to make plain, *I* for one am not a creationist, not a you all will go to Hell type person!

I don't believe so, Bouncy. I think this is on a par with all the (false) stories about the Vatican either refusing to help Jews during WW2 or actually approving the Holocaust.
I am googling even as I type this, and hope to come up with some useful links. Back in a mo...
http://answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html
<<The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:


Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:


Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


14th December, 1941, midday:


Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:


There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278) >>
http://kevin.davnet.org/essays/hitler.html
When one looks at the atrocities committed under the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler and compares them to the teacher of universal love, Jesus of Nazareth, one might come to the immediate conclusion that the notion that Hitler was a Christian is absurd. Nevertheless, no small number of people hold such a view. Why do they think this, and is there any truth to it?

This question has been vexing me for years. I've done a lot of research, read a number of books, written a pretty large web site to try to get at the issue (which is by no means simple and clear cut). Frankly, this is an area where objectivity is a severe challenge. The argument has become one between the Christian apologists and the anti-Christian propagandists. That's not much of a formula for truth.

There's something to be going on with. The second one may well be more to your liking... he's got more to say.

Lemon Blossom, *please* use my new name - there is a reason for it...
I googled the question and got some links and notes, some of which I have posted - here's another...
Was Hitler a Christian?
Notes from sites.
http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/Hitler.html
The allegation is sometimes made that Hitler was a Catholic - a Christian until the day he died. This claim is based upon the fact that Hitler was born and raised in a Catholic family.

However, as an adult, Hitler specifically rejected the Catholic Church, as well as Christianity in general. He described himself as "a complete pagan".

Mormons - no, the reason why I, (Della) don't count them as Christian, is because their beliefs go far beyond anything Christianity has ever taught up until their foundation. The history of the Native American people for one...
It's not a matter of 'my ideas' at all, because it's a matter of degree in part. If I chose to call myself a Hindu, but added Loki, Odin and Freya to the pantheon, or called myself a Muslim, but introduced a couple of other deities, Hindus and Muslims would have every right to say that I am not a Hindu, or a Muslim, because my version of such belief systems went far beyond anything that would be accepted by say, a Muslim religious school.
I know little or nothing about Hinduism, but I know enough about Islam to know that they in particular would be *very* annoyed indeed!
(I had a very fruitful and enjoyable discussion with a couple of Muslim women at work last year.)

Okay I retract my comment about Hitler being Christian. But I will say this especially since the recent Pope John Paul has apologized for the atrocities of WWII, but the Catholics were supporters of this genocide just like Britain, America, France, Russia, IBM, and the Swiss Bank.

BBITM
Hitler wasn't a Christian
he may have been brought up one but he was contemptuous of Christianity considering it a religion for weaklings

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Maybe their isn't a good one. Do you have a less random/subjective one?

All I can think of is simply "anyone who calls themself one". Maybe that's the best definition.

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The reason seems simple to me--fundamentalists are more likely to feel a need to tell everyone who'll listen about their beliefs. There are probably lots of non-fundamentalists who just don't show up on the theology discussions here because they aren't interested in telling everyone about their religion. Evangelicals, on the other hand, believe they must tell everyone, so they come out of the woodwork whenever a theology debate appears anywhere.




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See above for my guess.

to work!

az

Breakfast bar is open - lots of cherry jam this morning

Lemon Blossom and Sceptic

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>>Good point. Darnn. I can't stop thinking from a monotheistic standpoint even though I never was one.<<

There are times when - as a polytheist who has met many of her gods and a few who she thought were other people's - I think it would be a lot simpler if monotheism /were/ a valid choice…

Jez - also to w**k

Della-Annie

>>Hitler absolutely was *not* a Christian. Full stop. In fact, as far as I know, he was a pagan<<

Since you have now established that Hitler was not a Christian, would you mind retracting your own statement that he was a pagan, as he clearly stated, in the words you yourself quoted, that he believed that:

>>National Socialism and religion cannot exist together<<

Jez - who is not expecting an answer, going by previous exchanges where the truth came a poor second in the record of this poster under each and every one of her many names

Lemon,

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I'd go along with that as I've never seen any evidence to the contrary.

az

i just saw aw a news rs report where the lady sa said her main criteriaeria for voting gwb back in was that he was a christian..........if hes a good christian then i'm a monkeys uncle

Why can't Bush say he's a Christian just like any other Christian? Meanwhile, I admit that he certainly isn't a 'good' anything . . .

az

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Maybe their isn't a good one. Do you have a less random/subjective one?
All I can think of is simply "anyone who calls themself one". Maybe that's the best definition."

But use of a label is appropriate only to the extent that it conveys information between the user and the listener. Therefore the use of the label may be appropriate in some circumstances and inappropriate in others, depending upon the understandings of those agents.

Concerning the definition which included acceptance of the new testament, I know of "Christians" who accept the New Testament excluding Paul's writings. And Muslims accept the Gospels of Jesus, although their tradition has recorded his teaching differently.

I would say that in my own personal experience from meeting many people who apply the label "Christian" to themselves, the definition which seems to most closely bind the philosophies generally understood to be "Christian" is "Christianity is faith in Jesus as Lord and Saviour whose atoning sacrifice is the only grounds for salvation."

Bod

"i just saw aw a news rs report where the lady sa said her main criteriaeria for voting gwb back in was that he was a christian..........if hes a good christian then i'm a monkeys uncle"

Well, Jesus did command "Do to others as you would have them do to you." Maybe GWB wishes somebody to rubber-stamp his execution. We can only hope...