h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Insight
Jordan used his precognitive powers to answer the question I asked about being dead in the same way as you repeated. Same bible ref. and all!
But I then asked this;
"If the dead are dead until the awakening of Armageddan, er.... isn't that the same thing as going 'straight' to paradise Baptised or not?
Since time will not exist for the un conscious?"

in other words what is the difference between being dead as a non witness and dead as a witness?
Do 'believer's get an extra day or two in paradise whilst those who are not witnesses are in a state of suspension that they are unaware of, thus making it seem as if they have not had to wait for paradise at all?
Do dead babies get a get out of 'hell'(AKA unconscious state) pass and go straight to paradise and if so why?

Am I making any sense in this question to you?

Hoo I get your drift on the experience thing

Insight:

"I bet you've heard of chaos theory."

Yes... and I even think I know what you mean by that, and it makes sense, sort of - critical dependence on initial conditions. I don't agree with the analogy, however. No worries.

"If you accept that it happened at random, you'll probably accept that everything else merely developed according to whatever physical laws were randomly decided.

Would that be a fair summary of your point of view?"

Yes! Well put.

Except you can extend that, just a bit - by saying that if anything ELSE had been randomly decided, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it. 0.1% more charge on the electron, and the universe doesn't support life. So no conversation takes place. We shouldn't be surprised to be alive in a universe which is conducive to supporting life, should we? (RHETORICAL QUESTION, I don't want to start that all up again, I'm just reiterating what I believe and why to show Insight that he's right (about that!), OK! )

H.

I just wanted to get another possible explanation out of the way before you pointed out the logical (godless) conclusions of the results.

I don't know if you saunter in real life, but I think you'd be great sauntering in as the antagonist in my great new play, 'The Irrational'. Here's a snippet:

Scene i

Jordan and the gang sitting in the Religio town bar sipping alchohol-free cocktail. Cue wind, and Hoo saunters in through swing doors. Everything goes quiet. Justin the Preacher hums more quietly, Insight moves his hand inperceptibly towards his pocket New-Era. Alji silently curses 'here we go again' and falls into a deep, trance-like state. Matholwch remains composed as always. Jordan remains confused, as always. Bod, who was looking longingly at the Christian table, realises suddenly that she's quite glad she isn't over there...
Della smiles. She's too nice to react badly.
Long pause during which Hoo takes the whole scene in, after which the bar-tender speaks.

Bar-tender: [nervously] You want something to drink, sir?
Hoo: I'm here to see the one called...
All (except Alji): Yes?
Hoo: ...The one called...
All: Yes?
Hoo: I'm pausing for effect, people. Chill out.

Hasslefree appears from nowhere, conspicuously wearing an ice-cube, and sits at a table in front of Jordan, who is paradoxically writing the next scene. Semaj looks in, realises that, although he can't find Dune, this is as good a place as any and sits down, telling people to 'be happy'.

Hoo: As I said, I'm here for the one called... God.

Shocked intake of breath by all.

Matholwch: Are you referring to the Abrahamic tradition of a single triple-O deity, or to a more general concept, in which case you should refer to 'God or gods'?

Noggin pops in.

Noggin: Are we working from the Standard Theological Model?
Bod: This might be better defined if someone would answer my questions three...
Jordan: God is an irrational concept that you will only find if you believe in him.
Justin: [with gravity] You already know the answer, but you are INFECTED with Sin. Only through Jesus...
Della: I recall a particularily nasty case of Sin I had when I was 12, my doctor prescribed some antibiotics...
Insight: I have faith that he is there, and here is my intelligent demonstration of why he does not exist.
Researcher 34023470192374901270394710293740127340971623453490: Ah, I may have the answer. It is in the numerological significance of my user number.

Other voices are heard. diversity begins making a comment, whilst Lucinda et al feels compelled to make a few observations.

Hoo: NO! I do not want this. See, how you cannot agree on a definition? It is unobjective! God is a meaningless concept! And incidentally, observe the impact of facts on your intelligent proof of creation.

Insight's proof dissolves instantly on contact with Hoo's factaphuric acid.

Insight: No! Stop!
Noggin: On that line, the neo-Kantian predilection for a dialectic, near Hegellian metaphor of interspatial 'a priori' concepts, coupled with the distinctions arising from the Standard Theological Model, would suggest that God is merely a social concept.
Jordan: Oh, no...

Alji pops out of his trance.

Alji: Check out [Broken link removed by Moderator](now you see how I find all these links!)

Justin crashes like a PC running Windows.

MaW: Oh, wait, didn't I unsubscribe back in post 933?
Hasslefree: I meet God in chapter two. See here?

Jordan begins furiously writing, peeking conspicuously at Hasslefree's book.

Person hidden by Moderator.

Hoo: Be silent! I demand a showdown!
Pulls out semi-axiomatic.
Della: NO! Why are you so aggressive, Hoo?

Insight pulls out his Bible and points the quote at Hoo. Hoo's historical evidence rips through it, hurting Insight.

Jordan: Insight! NOOOO...
Insight: I don't want... a blood transfusion...

Suddenly, Jordan pulls out his trumph card.

Jordan: Ha! You don't fool me! For my faith is irrational, and I believe it in the face of fact!
Hoo: Oh, dear. That's that one buggered. Oh well, here is something to be misread by everyone so I can quote it back when I return. Can I have a martini on the rocks to go?

Insight is miraculously resurrected when Armageddon briefly misfires.
Justin's programmer Steve (U197974) pops in, sighs and sets to work rebooting the system.

Steve: Crud, he's core-dumped the entire Old Testament again...
Bod: I think it all started when he finally understood my theory of God, which would take infinately long if time and space existed.

Jordan tries to do a , but realises that the smiley doesn't exist and trips over his own shoelaces, dropping his theory of free will on the floor.
Della purrs serenely.
Math worships his river in an attempt to fulfill a stereotype.
Anthea suddenly shows up with a giant pagan statue which is full of innuendo - even the people who didn't look up exploding black holes get it.
Alji settles back into his trance, having overshot his scripture quota for the day.
diversity looks for a capital letter.
god watches diversity with a wicked glint in hir eye.
Lucinda et al continues writing hir article on Gender Free Pronouns, in case anyone doesn't get the meaning of 'hir'.
Noggin sips at his Logic Bomb.
Justin insists that to be free from Sin, he must divide by 0.
Bod directs some newcomers to the 'question of evil'.
Researcher 13423409127304979571234123476289346128936489127364943 notices one of his proteges among the crowd.
Everyone bemoans the lack of an accent key.
Some other people are forgotten.



That's it. I've still to write Scene e^i, but I have writer's block and I need to get some sleep.

- Jordan

In philosophy speak reason is generally used to refer to agencies, and causes to purely physical causes. If the universe has a reason for its existence this implies god or similar. If it has a cause, it doesn't. Talking of causes "outside" the universe, however, goes beyond the bounds of what is understandable. And, IMHO, talking of a reason for the universe goes the same way.

I've always said that spirituality is a natural component of the human psyche, so I've no problem with it being a surge of activity in certain groups of neurons (or possibly absence of same where there is normally activity, as some of the evidence suggests). But I suppose the same COULD be said of "normal" states of mind.

Noggin

I'm feeling embarassed now at multiple postings but feel the need to say something else to insight/
Some of us can accept that the universe is too brilliant to be a series of random accidents, and in doing so come to believe in a creator......
Good. we have a foundation of agreement.
Where we differ is what happens next.
The concept of creator as father figure with rules and judgements being at the head of a selective club that only allows card carrying members to get on board the paradise express.
For instance Justine does not belive that you David will make it to God's metaphorical right hand. Ever. You will burn he says
Does that make any sense to you at all, given the life you live?
and yet on the other hand do you see Justine being controlled by Satan given the words he spouts and the bible references he quotes.
According to Justine the lot of us are for the fire. you, me, Math, Jordan, Bod , Della, Hoo, Alji and the rest.

Why when a person lives a good life are they excluded from this journey to paradise because they do not have the prerequisite label?
It make absolutely no sense to me. Never has and never will.
whether that label reads Muslim, Witness, Christian, hindu. atheist etc etc.
I believe we're all invited. This is how an all powerful God would treat his creation.
If we're looking at God as parent I certainly wouldn't consign my 'children' to a firey eternal pit for sticking their tongue out at me. Not if I loved them I wouldn't.
This is so contrary to everything I believe in, that God is selective towards his creation

It's Justin, not Justine...

[Ducks away, fearing retalliation ]

- Jordan

Absolutely brilliant Jordan although my part as an ice cube could have been filled out a bit more, if only to satisfy my attention seeking disorder
Er that'll be chapter 45. I make you wait to see God
And why not. It's worth it

It's retaliation, not retalliation.

[Ducks away, fearing he knows not wot]

Noggin

[Shoots off after Noggin holding a very big... dangerous thing]

Come here, you wascally wenegade typo twacker!

[Puffs, realising that Noggin has caught the philosophy express]

I mean to add a bit more at the end about how you comfort Insight after his full-death experience, glancing around sporadically in search of your text box, but I never forgot so many things...

- Jordan

And you're only wearing an ice cube, due to your precognitive realisation that Hoo would ask you to chill out...

- Jordan

Basically, the difference is that a dead witness has pleased God during his life. And pleasing God is the purpose of what we do - if I was only interested in getting into paradise I suppose I could just kill myself. Except I wouldn't want to upset my family etc. of course, but you know what I mean.


Funny, I remember some similar words: 'For there are many invited, but few chosen'. That was what Jesus said at the end of an illustration in which several people were invited to a feast, but people kept coming up with excuses not to come. Yes, anybody can come, and he wants everybody to come, which is why he commands us to go out and preach to people. But doesn't always do just as he pleases, for he has standards of justice - 'the wages sin pays is death', and if people refuse to repent for their sins, they will have to pay the penalty. God has provided a way out, he has commanded us to tell people about the way out, the people must themselves choose to take it.


No, but I do my best to live according to what the Bible says, and to keep making sure of what that is. He, on the other hand, has already mentioned several doctrines which have no biblical origin, only pagan origin.


If he says things about God which are false, really insulting God by suggesting, for example, that he would create a place of fiery torment for people, and implying, by calling himself christian, that this is what the Bible teaches - well, he isn't likely to be being controlled by God or Jesus, is he? If he is being controlled by anyone, then it's more likely to be by an enemy of them, either a human one or a spirit one.

Yes I've done the tunnel and the light thing without the aid of electrical or drug stimulation. By using the techniques formulated by Yogis, Zen Buddhists, Sufis, Taoists, Christian mystics and various others it is possible for most if not all to do the same. It is not accomplished by talking or reasoning but by doing it with an open mind, free from the restraints of preconceptions or prejudice.



Alji

Deja vu, has had 3 explanations that I am aware of, the first being 'past life memory' and the secind being that one visual field perceives something a fraction of a second (a millisecond?) before the other - so the other visual field, sending the image to the brain's other hemisphere, thinks the item of news it's sending is newer than it is. Your explanation is the 3rd and most intriguing! In the TV drama 'Lexx: Tales from the Dark Zone', an important character is the Time Prophet, who foretells the future of many characters, from their experiences in 'previous cycles of time', which she can see.
It's an intriguing idea, and I am not sure yet how much weight to give it - and where God fits in - well, in my view, God is the Director of whatever process 'is'.

>>I don't know if you saunter in real life, but I think you'd be great sauntering in as the antagonist in my great new play, 'The Irrational'. Here's a snippet<<

LOL!!!! Big time, Jordan - 'that's a work of a genius' as Steve Wright would say.
I admit, I am a bit vapid at times.. But I do find Justin quite scary.
I hadn't answered this, but Hasslefree, I am very interested in your NDE.. which (among other proofs, some Biblical) pretty well disposes of the JW soul sleep idea.. )

Bravo, Jordan!

Can I tempt you to (holy)ghostwrite the new, improved Bible?

Jordan
I don't know if anyone said it but;
Justin is without the typo E
And I think Bod might be a HE

'the wages of sin pays death', and if people refuse to repent for their sins, they will have to pay the penalty"
What is the penalty?

surely this isn't metaphor
We are all going to die you know.
Killing yourself is probably the worst thing you could do when you've received the gift of life. A waste.
If pleasing God is the only real issue, then I think that there are many people out there in the big world without religious affiliation who are managing to do this.

I thought it was the wages of sin are death anyway, who gets to change these odd words here and there as time goes by.
so we have a group of people all living 'good lives " (In the sense of society and good conscious agrees that things like murder, theft, gossip, treachery, abuse etc are not acceptable)
some of them are not baptised and when dead become unconscious of anything until they are awakened at some distant point called the end of the world.
where is the penalty?
Others who have been baptised get to go to some land of plenty and meet up with other baptised people and when the end of the world comes, the unbaptised get the land of plenty too.
Everybody hitler, Saddam (Evil being in the eye of the beholder,)all get to paradise at the sound of the final trumpet?
So what is the difference? where is the promised penalty?
I still don't think you're 'getting' what I'm saying here.
Some people could live the life as proscribed by a witness program and still not get where ever.
IF getting to paradise is not the issue for a witness, why do you have to BE a witness to lead a good life?

Hearing your reponse that Jesus said the wages of sin are death, is a bit like eating an air sandwich with invisible filling. It doesn't really satisfy the question of the meaning of Jehova's Witnesses.
When giving a biblical quote it would be really nice if you could explain what they mean to you
OR does being a Witness mean we are people who like to live a good moral life and also like being in a club of like minded people, because that is fine, but don't dam the rest of us.

You think Justin is the pagan and he thinks you are.
while Math knows he is and is more than happy about it and leads a life just as worthy as anyone, if not more so.
You've got to hand it to God, he/she/ it's made this simple message of 'love one another' nicely tricky

DElla as far as I can tell, apart from the very occasional visits by Anthea(Come more often Anthea) we are the only current Female contributors to this debate.
For goodness sake stick around, all these men with their photographic memories.
That's what you get when your brain is evolved to concentrate on one thing at a time instead of having a brain evolved to concentrate on fity jobs at once!
I learnt not to talk about my NDE, because it seemed to upset people, odd that.
then for some reason it came back to me, and now you'll notice I don't shut up about it
Hoos idea that the memories of it may be a retrofit, didn't work for me, how could I retro fit somethihg that happened if no one gave me the information after the event?

If when we 'die' we go into a dream state, why then isn't the dream as complicated and surreal as 'every day dreams'

Looking at the list of characteristics of people who had had NDE, taken from a site, I was taken aback at how closely this represented who I have been since the event.

Perhaps near death means brain damage of some kind that we are all suffering from in the same way, but are these same characteristics we all have due to the same brain part failing to function for one reason or another.
MY near death came about after a long hard struggle to give birth to a stillborn baby (is birth the right word here?)

I wouldn't have said this to you and I'm apprehensive about saying it because some things you know, you don't want picked to pieces by the scientists,
I've said here that I didn't meet up with Jesus or any saints or angels, but I have been sort of secretive about who I did meet up with.
IT's a s if the thing that you met is a guide.
no doubt sent in the shape of something that comforts, and that is why I believe so many people see so many different guide shapes. none of which is devilish in appearance or ........ thought, sense, feel.

In the experience I asked myself how I felt, and the answer I gave myself was that I felt like a smile, it was the only word I could come up with
MY 'guide' told me things which were outside my experience, things n not within my knowledge
I have found that this is imporssible in dreams. I cannot dream new information, I can mangle known stuff, but somwtimes when dreaming of reading a book, I can't make sense of the letters if the book contains a story I do not know.
I didn't feel like a loud laugh or a giggle i felt like a smile.
The other consciousness that seemed to inhabit the 'space' I was in was my baby. who was wiser than I was and more beautiful in that wisdom
Go figure

Jordan .

And why are you sitting here wasting your bardic talents when you could be working for Radio 4 penning the religious sequel to Hitchhikers? .

Great piece, but I hurt my funny bone when I fell off the chair laughing.

Me, fulfill a stereotype, ye gods forbid !!

Blessings,
Matholwch the proud stereotype /|\.

Hi Hasslefree .

You don't have to have a Near Death Experience to meet a guide. Those who have followed a tradition with heavy emphasis on meditation, or those with a more shamanic approach (such as myself) meet such guides frequently. If we are lucky we come to learn from them, though just as often they can be very confusing (at least to bears of little brain like me).

It makes me laugh when scientists claim that they have found an area of the brain that can stimulate a transcendant experience. Especially when the ignorant instantly jump on it as proof of the non-existence of god(s). I am sure if all the world was blind except a sighted few, who attempted to descibe to the others what colours were, when the scientists discovered that these sighted-people had eyes they could use the same reasoning to debunk colour theory.

To me such a discovery is marvellous. Consider that we should, by evolutionary theory, only develop and keep useful mutations. Non-useful ones slowly disappear. Why then do we have a fully-active part of our brain that can access transcendant experiences? Could it be that we have in the past lived in times where such a part was more useful, or is it that it is growing and this is why more and more people are having strange, unexplained (so far) transcendant experiences?

Thus the incidence of NDE's is growing due to our natural ability to disassociate the mind and spirit from the body, not mass hysteria as the scientific establishment would like us to believe because it fits their very narrow world view better. The stress of the NDE liberates the mind and activates this part of the brain. Also could it be that to those of us who claim to train ourselves to use this part of our brain are not charlatans after all, but explorers at the edge of consciousness?

It would be interesting to see if these scientists would find it easier to stimulate this area in one who is trained, such as a Buddhist Monk or Siberian Shaman, thus showing that the training is useful.

The real question is that if this area of the brain is responsible for either causing transcendant experiences (the scientist's argument), or for enabling us to see more clearly (my argument) then what is its real purpose?

Blessings,
Matholwch the Apostate /|\.