h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

M Vixen

>>Thortons next in line mebbe....<<

Working, as I do, next door to the Thorntons factory and down the road from their discount outlet, I can personally confirm that their chocolate, particularly when half price, is excellent.

There is also a restaurant at their shop - did you know they make Thorntons desserts in all the types of chocolate - giant Thorntons chocolates with hot chocolate, with chocolates on the saucer...

Jez - thinning heathen and witch with won't power

Usually

Thanks for the links Alji. I'll peruse them in more detail when I've a bit more time, but I had a quick look at the last one, and pretty much the first paragraph I read reveals a great deal of confusion, so despite the fact I said I wouldn't, I'm going to anyway.

"The minimalists... see minimal historical value in the bible, and would radically correct Jewish history to dispose of early myths that find no basis in real history having left no trace in contemporary annals and archaeology. Maximalists see the bible as historical and would rather revise history to fit the bible than do the reverse."

The problem is that the real history alluded to is *already* a history revised to fit the Bible. One of the pillars of the construction of that history is the equation of Sheshonk I of the Egyptian 22nd Dynasty with Shishak, King of Egypt, who invaded Palestine following the death of Solomon on the grounds of the similar sounds of the names, and with the start of the 22nd Dynasty dated by the approximate date established by the Bible. But there is *no* evidence internal to Egyptian archaeology or records to justify the extra 110-120 years that have been added to Manetho's 22nd Dynasty to establish this link. But it gets worse; because the current evidence is that even if the Biblical history is correct Sheshonk cannot be equated with Shishak.

So if the bible is wrong the "real" history is false.
And if the bible is right the "real" history is false.

Corollary: if the bible is false (in its narrative of key historical events, rather than every detail) it cannot be proved so by reference to the "real" history, and the terms of debate are shifted.

Noggin

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No, I don't really want to be human. Human nature is wrong if it contradicts conclusions reached by other means.

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I do find exploring others reactions a bit interesting, though it is more chalenging here than at school because you all seem to be better at challenging me in a meaningful way.

Actually, though, I'd probably prefer to be reading a good science fiction novel. But, under my rationing sytem, I can't do that again for a while. (Most of the authors I like are dead or very old; thus I must ration their books or I'd read everything by them and that would not be good.)

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I would say that there are two leels of right/wrong. On a more general species-wide level, something is wrong if and only if it violates someone else's freedome of action.

On a personal level, something is wrong if it leads to enjoyment but little or no long-term gain.




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Yes, I suppose I am trying to be superhuman. Though I don't have a Theos to depend on and I'm not convinced that Deos is necesarily benevolent towards humanity or intelligence in general.




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Well, mostly things that seem to me to be "empty" or that just feel wrong or make me feel guilty I consider to be wrong. I then try to develope a non-contradictory logical framework to define these ideas--that is the hard part.

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I'm not a troll; however this has been a buisy week in terms of homework and I've had a hard time finding time to give much in the way of responces. If there are any inquiries you want more detail on, I'd be glad to give it to you.

Frankly, I never intended to get into a huge, endless discussion on this subject; I'm willing to talk about it if others want to but I don't find it particularly interesting.



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I've discussed these things with classmates at school and haven't had a breakdown as a responce. I'll consider discussing it with a counceller, but I just don't see what I have to discuss that would be of any significant importance to them.

Hi Lemon Blossom

"Well, mostly things that seem to me to be "empty" or that just feel wrong or make me feel guilty I consider to be wrong. I then try to develope a non-contradictory logical framework to define these ideas--that is the hard part."

An interesting proposition, but possibly flawed? Would not a more useful internal response be to spend some time exploring as to why you feel something to be instinctively wrong?

We all grow up with a huge amount of cultural baggage. Some of it useful, some bizarre, and some positively harmful. If we are to show true intelligence then we should examine this and consider both the source of it and its usefulness in our present social and personal contexts.

What you seem to be doing is give complete credence to your internal gut instinct about wrongness and then try to fit the facts around it to give it some sort of objective basis for truth. This will not help you.

"On a personal level, something is wrong if it leads to enjoyment but little or no long-term gain."

Why? Can not a short term gain be useful, especially if it allows stress to be dissipated for instance? I read fantasy novels for enjoyment. Heaven knows, with the parlous state of modern fiction, they give no educational or philosophical value. Thus it is wrong, in your view, to spend my spare time doing this.

"Yes, I suppose I am trying to be superhuman."

Why? You cannot succeed. You are who you are, a bright, thoughtful student with incredible potential. However, if you cut yourself from a part of the human experience, without clear, objectively thought through reasons, you will never be whole.

And finally...

"On a more general species-wide level, something is wrong if and only if it violates someone else's freedom of action."

About much use as the Wiccan Rede - "An in harm none, do what thou will". Every action you take will impinge on someone else's freedom of action in this overcrowded world. Just being a consumer guarantees this. Drink coffee, some third world farmer is exploited. Drive your car, pollute an already overloaded environment. Write some notes, a tree had to die. You can't win that one as by your definition everything you do is wrong

It might be better to consider how, as a responsible world citizen, you can leave this world a better place than when you found it. What actions you can take on a personal, social and political level that will make a difference.

You are young, you are immortal, do not ruin your life by unnecessary abstinence or by narrowing your mind and your choices. Use intelligence and reason to plot your course and be happy.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Hi Matholwch,

Hi Lem, I have to say I agree with nearly everything Matholwch has said in his last post.

Except
you will never be whole.

I think we are all struggling to be entirely content, completly at ease with ourselves and the world, but Math, if your trying to say that missing out some parts what humans can do will make Lem an incomplete person I realy have to disagree.

If I go on holiday to Ireland and dont kiss the Blarney stone its still a full week away from work. Even if I only make it as far as Anglesey and cant get a ferry crossing because of the weather I can still have a holiday there.

We may be put together from different experiences some of us may even be missing body parts, we will have different experiences of what it is to be human but we will still be human. Am I incomplete because Ive neve killed for food, would a woman be incomplete if she never bore a child?

Also.

You are young, you are immortal, do not ruin your life by unnecessary abstinence or by narrowing your mind and your choices. Use intelligence and reason to plot your course and be happy.

Well Im not so sure the universe we are part of is immortal. Life is too short to devote it to one thing someone say others would say make the most of your talents and concentrate on what your good at. Still others would say follow your heart and go where your passions lead you.

Im far from sure about any of the advice in the last two paragraphs though Im sure there's a grain of truth and some measure of good reason in all of it.

Life is something that we live going forwards but only understand looking backwards. As such we only get the chance to honestly (no revisionist lieing to ourselves) and accurately evaluate our paths once we have walked them.

Listen to others but trust that your own judgement.

one love

Hi, Lem. Thank you for your detailed reply. My enquiry was designed to analyse your thinking rather than prompted by (idle) curiosity. It appears to have succeeded, and particularly in revealing that you rely on intuition for your sense of right and wrong.

As Math has indicated (and I too agree with much of what he says) these 'gut feelings' often come from early upbringing that we usually don't consciously recall. I don't think theres's any logical justification for building a belief system, however coherent, round these assumptions. I know that justification of what we believe has to stop somewhere, but please, not at 'gut feelings'!

I also consider that we are such social animals that what is good for the group is also good for ourselves. It may be that you disapprove of your nearest group - which is likely to be the main source of your intuitions! That is going to build in contradictions or dysfunctional beliefs, I suspect.

Fortunately, you are still formulating these ideas as some of us continue doing throughout life it seems. Far be it from any of us to insist on any particular line of argument. This thread has to be one of the most enlightened sourced of discussion I have found on the net anyway. I do hope that our remarks are of some use to you in encouraging lines of thinking that you may not have given much weight to. I would be sorry if you only tolerated this discussion out of politeness.

Cheers, toxx.

Noggin the Nog

Do you mean the Santorini incident as an explanation of Plagues ect and the Parting of the REED Sea, and Manna as a modern day export of Egypt ect, as I would not be at all bored by this.

Lemon Blossom

Try Asimov,Harry Harrison, Ray Bradbury, A.C. Clark they should keep you occupied for a few years at the very least. Asimov wrote more than 300 books.

Lemmon Blossom

As I have read your posts over the last few weeks I have struggled to feel like I have understood what you are really talking about.

I have begun to develop an image in my mind of someone who struggles to feel as if they have connections with the people arround them. I find myself imagining that you watch others wondering how they can live their lives in the way they do, constantly wrestling with good and bad feelings getting into arguments one minute and swearing undying loyalty to each other the next.

I cannot help thinking that you are trying to impose a sense of order on what you experience. The phrase cognitive dissonance has been used in a number of replies to you. If we accept that this mainly refers to being undecided about a choice then it seems as if these replies are encouraging you to choose.

Reading many of your post's there is a description in them of a solitary, thoughtful, distant character, almost pre-raphaelite in it's wistfulness. This may not be the impression intended but it is how it seems to me.

In some of your posts there is a sense that the abstinence you subject yourself to has a long term goal, I wonder what that might be.

Your identification of a non-christian status linked to the almost Monastic lifestyle you appear to be trying to live implies to me an ambivalence, I wonder if you have read about the lives of saints eg st francis and have found their determination and committment attractive, but have however found it impossible to 'believe in the ideology'.

For myself I have certainly been interested in the lives of 'saints' in which I would include St francis and Ghandi and Joan and Martin Luther King and Malcom X to name but a few (I know they haven't all been named as saints but there lives seem saintly to me.) They all had this ambivalence about their role in life, and most if not all failed in their high ideals by their own standards. But they all did something of huge importance in their lives. Ghandi independance for india, Francis brought the lives of ordinary men to the attention of authority, Martin Luther King the Civil RIghts Movement, Malcom X civil rights, self respect and letting white people know just how angry black people were and that they had a right to this anger. Joan brought her faith in god to the french nation in the face of english oppression.

I wonder what great task you might be setting yourself, what will all this self denial produce in the end.

Noggin the Nog,

Sorry didn't read all the posts again did I, the chronology of Egypt and the Bible is an interesting problem. The difficulty I would agree is that one or the other or both have to give. I am hazier about this history than I am on some but it seems to me that finding paralells with geological events such as santorini helps.

I also wonder about the babylonian captivity and how all the Hebrew texts were reputedly lost in this time to be rewritten after freedom once more came to the Jews. I am at times forgiving of oral traditions and at others critical. It seems to me that there are questions about the chronology of the old testament that could be usefully asked not least who decides which books are appocryphal and which aren't and who determines the internal chronology. I know that this is supposed to be consistant but the Jot's and Tittles are very important aspects of the hebrew language, The difference between 'like a lion' and 'a lion' comes down to one Jot as far as I know, as such it is a language peculiarly vunerable to misstranscription.

I wonder if there Are any other Pharoes who's names might be jiggled about with to come up with the names you mention.

NB another thought We have no concrete way of knowing what prenunciation some words have in these ancient languages, although we can make educated guesses. An egyptian name written in Hebrew might have quite a different appearance to what you might expect.

Hopefully helpful thoughts

Hey LB...

There are sh*t loads of books out there to be discovered and read don't limit yourself to a few authors...try everything - expand your reading skills with different styles of writing and thought.

LB,

May I ask, how would you describe parents? Do you have any siblings?

I may have missed this in previous post perhaps, if so apologies

SD

Try to have a read (or at least a skim) of alji's last link in #18099. Despite appearances I'm a minimalist myself, but for the reasons adduced in #18102 I think that same minimalism must also be applied with equal rigour to conventional Egyptology.

I'm much tempted by the Santorini/Exodus equation, though it is not without difficulties. But that the second largest known eruption of the last ten thousand years should take place slap bang in the middle of the Med and go unremarked by any of the ancient sources *does* strike me as odd.

Anyways, off to strip some wallpaper. Back later.

Noggin

And while we're at it, lay off LB a bit, will ya? You're making her sound deranged rather than unusual. I can actually recognise a lot of what she says as a facet of my own personality. I just acquired/developed some extra facets as I got older. So will she.

Noggin

Happy wallpaper stripping, Noggin! I love decorating, wish we had our own house again *sigh* The decor here is a bit shabby, but being as we rent, any time or money spent wouldn't be worth it...the landlord isn't that interested in having it 'done up either', if we did he'd prolly charge us more rent...

I didn't think LB sounds deranged. Seems like she doesn't mind discussing stuff so I figured I'd ask stuff am I getting too personally disecting ya think in this 'open air' thread?

I think only LB can answer that, Vix; but I think I'd be a little uncomfortable if it was me.

Noggin

landlord isn't that interested in having it 'done up either'if we did he'd prolly charge us more rent... Why not charge him for the increase in value after you have done thisYou can suggest that you are happy for him to pay his contribution by way of installments for example by way of instead of you paying (x) amount of rent to him you will deduct his proportion of it from your rent also you might want to send him a copy of planned maintenence over the next 3 years.