h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Insight actually isn't very insightful when he/she writes that even the simplest form of life is incredibly complex. Actually all that it takes for life to happen is for a molecule to form with the ability to split in two to form two identicle molecules, which can be done in the laboratory, and for the offshoots to have the capacity to mutate. Reason says that those which mutate to give themselves an advantage are more likely to survive and thus produce more offspring, so actually life isn't such a big mystery after all. It's called evolution by natural selection, folks.

Bordering on a personal insult there, thankyou... they clamp down heavily around here on that sorta thing...
But does Insight mean the most simple theoretical life, or the most simple existing life?

Which *can't* be done in the laboratory. The issue is not whether cell biology is complex or not (it is - very), but on how functional complexity arises in the first place.

Argument 1) It can't have arisen by itself, so it must have been designed by something MORE complex.
Problem - How did this more complex thing arise?

Argument 2) Functional complexity develops over time as a result of the operations of natural laws given the right conditions.

Noggin

Insight, you wrote;
>Since Jesus believed the Genesis account to be factual, should we not believe it too?<

First you have to prove to me that the Jesus you speak of is real.
Then you have to prove that he wasn't just another teacher.
<quote from http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/early.html#Genealogy >
"Working from the index of the complete works of Josephus we find reference to no less than fourteen people named 'Jesus'."
1. Jesus, son of Phabet - priest
2. Jesus, son of Ananus - prophesied the destruction of the temple.
3. Jesus, or Jason
4. Jesus, son of Sapphias, governor of Tiberias
5. Jesus, brother of Onias - priest
6. Jesus, son of Gamaliel - priest
7. Jesus, eldest priest after Ananus - priest
8. Jesus, son of Damneus - priest
9. Jesus, son of Gamala (Josephus' friend)
10. Jesus, [or Joshua] son of Nun
11. Jesus, son of Saphet - ringleader of robbers
12. Jesus, son of Thebuthus - priest
13. Jesus, son of Josedek
14. Jesus of Galilee & his 600 followers
15. Jesus, the Christ (dubious reference)
"In the works of Josephus, Jesus, as a name, is exceeded only by Simon (20 times) and Joseph (16). Josephus was a close personal friend of several Jesuses, especially the Jesus who was one of the last high priests before the war.
No.15 is thought to be a late addition by someone other than Josephus.
No.14 was a freedom fighter or terrorist depending whose side you're on.
Insight, Jewish belief requires the Messiah to be a father-to-son descendant of King David. Therefore, a Kohein, Levi, or a convert (and his children) cannot be the Messiah (Moshiach). Nor can someone whose father was an Angel.


Alji

Myst

>>Though, the name I'd know him by would be more like Wormwood, and less trickster<<

Oh, my gods - Myst, don't equate my gods with your devils.

I find it offensive.

This may not be a PC conversation, but JUST OCCASIONALLY try to take in what people really find important, like the fact that my god is not your devil, and stop making monotheistic assumptions.

Gods, I'm tired tonight - I think I'm going to unsub, I'm getting nowhere.

Jez - heathen, and not a devil-worshipper, despite what Myst thinks.

*Thinks that that was an over reaction, but agrees with the basics*
Porting beliefs around simply doesn't work, beyond equating them to eachother very generally, i.e. Athena = God = Buddha as representing a very nonspecific trend in cultures or whatever. Trying to say that everything that people believe that isn't God is the Devil is likely to rile a few people up. I'm now waiting and watching for an explanation.

*Thinks that that was an over reaction, but agrees with the basics*
Porting beliefs around simply doesn't work, beyond equating them to eachother very generally, i.e. Athena = God = Buddha as representing a very nonspecific trend in cultures or whatever. Trying to say that everything that people believe that isn't God is the Devil is likely to rile a few people up. I'm now waiting and watching for an explanation.

<>

That, "Thank you," is a pretty massive "all." The chances against such a molecule occurring are remote, as most laboratory attempts to produce "life" have demonstrated, which is not to say that life didn't actually arise by chance, but chance operating under very specific conditions.

Furthermore, does the splitting of an inorganic molecule, by your definition, constitute "life," or the ability of a molecule to reproduce itself, as can occur with certain crystals in a suitable medium?

( I would concur with others who find your tone offensively condescending. There is no-one, I suspect, arguing on this thread who is not aware of "natural selection" and the Darwinist/geneticist/evolutional arguments. But that's not the point, is it?)

I would also say that if you think life "isn't such a big mystery after all," it's because you either have not been present as a new life entered this world, or when an old life left it. Quite stunningly mysterious, both processes. Of course, if in fact you have been present for either of these occasions, I will swallow my words, eat my hat, grovel, etc.

Jez, please don't give up because of Myst's intransigence, we need the pagan flavour to lighten up what looks like becoming a rather tedious slanging match.

What is the speed of light on Jupiter?

Is it faster or slower due to the increase in gravitational pull?

Are Jupiter light particles the same size or smaller if they travel at the same rate as on Earth?

What is the conversion factor for Earth lightspeed into Jupiter measurement?

Just wondering...

diversity

Hi Math

I have been a bit busy so have only now seen your message, thanks, I will continue but I am sorry that Az has unsubscibed, due to the intolerance and rudeness of Tox, it,s a shame as Az always had very witty and valuable comments to make.

Christianity:- The bible clearly teaches not to judge ANYONE, I would take that to mean no-one at all even if they happen to be non-christians, and very importantly Jesus told us to love one another, that there is nothing greater than love, he didn,t specify that you can only love that person, or the other, but not someone else, because there beliefs differ from yours!!

If God is love, then he loves each and everyone of us, Christian or otherwise......even Druids!!!

Love
Jane

Hi Jedi Girl,

I've just read all four of the links you posted a page ago. I'm curious that on the one hand you seem to follow a very Bible-oriented theology, but yet espouse the views of Pelagius, who was condemned and vilified by Holy Mother Church as a heretic. Indeed, from my own theological studies ( a long time ago ) I seem to recall he was held responsible for two distinct heresies, Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism. I'll have to go and do a quick read to refresh myself on the details, but, if I remember correctly, he got into trouble for suggesting that humans needed to purify themselves in order to be "saved," thus belittling the role of Christ as an all-powerful saviour and fully sufficient sacrifice.

The trouble with Bible-oriented theology is that all too easily the inner contradictions within the Bible stories are conveniently ignored, and it is also very easy to forget that the "Gospels" , "god-spells" or "good news" are a testament not just to the teachings of Jesus, but also to the particular prejudices of St.Paul, whose take on Christianity happened to be the one that found eventual favour with Rome. The other versions were edited out. The entire Jewish-Christian Church of St.James, the brother of Jesus ( who, unlike St.Paul, knew Jesus rather well ) simply disappears, apart from one epistle. Ditto all negative references to the Roman empire, ( Paul being a Roman citizen ) busily flattening the Temple and persecuting rebellious Jews at the time the early Church was forming. Which partly explains the virulent anti-semitic tone running through the Gospels.

If you are also someone who recites the Creed, it is worth remembering that it came to be the way it is because the Emperor Constantine ran out of patience with the ever-arguing Church Fathers, and gave them until his birthday celebrations to come up with a "unified" formula that could be used as standard throughout the empire. ( He meanwhile continued to hedge his bets by observing both Christian and pagan rituals!)

At this point I'd like to plead guilty on behalf of everyone here to multiple deicide.

Anyone who tries to hurt my computer, and especially anyone who works against God's Word falls neatly into the definition of a devil. I'm sorry, but unless you can somehow give an example to me of how this Trickster will better anyone's life. through random damage and frustration, I can't imagine any good coming of it.

Oh, and I'm not referring to people. Think on the other plane, the spiritual one, or whatnot.

Hi Myst, maybe you don´t really badly have to, just to take his word, that it works for him, for face value, and leave it at that..

"when you travel the lands, to tell of The Kingdom, you should take kindly to local tradition, and gratefully eat what is served to you, as it is not that impurity which enters your mouth,that will pollute you, but that which emerges from it.."
(as i recall it, -from the E of Th.)

Word of God is a tricky subject, due to many factors,
above all,and credability issues aside, the fact that it requires interpretation to reach the physical ear.
The Great Wildebeast of the Apocalypse could very well be "Translation-traditions"..
The first couple of books in the old testament,
(when not moderated into jibberish by theologists,but by philologists)
reveals many traces of polytheism among the Israel tribes.
Even how Jacob inwokes the spirit of a "rosh",cleverly disguised as a stone-pillow..
These tales does not exactly condemn such practice, more like a notion that
"we don´t play with that anymore.."

By the way, should i leave my e-mail somewhere at your page, in order to join up on your C.G. ?..


A.D.

"Actually all that it takes for life to happen is for a molecule to form with the ability to split in two to form two identicle molecules"

Oh it's that easy. funny I thought it was complicated.
I think the question here about life is not how it happens and how it 'easily' evolves, but why.

Toxx
We are still not getting to a meeting point.
the cushion and the cannonball ARE in a state of change as each effects one another.Unless of course this object scenerio came into being in that state, which is hypothetical.
It doesn't matter the time line, the two objects are having an effect on each other. I think I've said that a couple of times now.
change can take millions of years or a second.
You cannot have cause and effect without change, otherwise it isn't C&E, since where is the cause and where is the effect in this scenerio if you have your way with it.
Tell me how you see this hypothetical cushion and ball in a million years time. Will it have remained the same do you think?
no change?
Can you tell me any 'object' that does not change over time.
Electrons are still subject to outside forces.

Toxx
"So something that is infinitely (large, I take it)"

No I am using the word infinite, to be something which has no beginning and no end, it is impossible to actually measure an infinite object or use the word large because of the implications of that . It could be argued that the 'perceived' smallest (and I hate using that word because of similar implications) could be infinite if it has no beginning and no end. I'm talking of duration I suppose, if we want to associate it with manmade time. duration implies something which endures. nothing ultimately endures to the unmeasurable point of infinity where 'object' is matter .
and the answer to your last question, how can we measure the infinite?
Well we can't, that's the point but I suppose it doesn't stop us trying and describing something that is unmeasurable as being large. I think this is why the word infinite was invented. to attempt to make the unthinkable, more controlled.

<...Az has unsubscibed, due to the intolerance and rudeness of Tox...>

Jane, you'll have to provide illustrative quotes to back up that personal insult. The occasion of Az's unsubscribing was that we corrected each other about the age of consent in Spain, then I pointed out that saying that she and Fred where the same meant that 'Fred' is an alternative naming convention for Az. How much more tolerant and polite can one be than to take someone's assertion seriously and work out its logical consequences?

A satisfactory response please Jane, or I shall be forced to reply in kind - much as it would pain me.

Alji
"You can't have matter without time"
My point exactly.
and time is a measurement of change and change is cause and effect and god exists in a place with no time or change and therefore no matter.
Matter exists within this material field we experience and therefore the above 'material' laws apply.
where things 'change' and they always do (even though I'm having trouble convincing Toxx.) they cannot be described as infinite - they do not last for eternity in the same form -So we live in a finite Universe. Which is in a 'constant' state of change.
the Universe may well last for an 'eternity' in our time measured view, but it is not the SAME universe of a million years ago. It has changed because of the laws which govern this experiental field we live in.