h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I really hate to do this as I'll be gone for seven days and unable to reply but I've just go to say it before the topic drifts to something else.

Malthowich.....you are wiccan right? I want you to remember the Beltane festivals and the opposing holiday in the spring, I forget the name. Any illegitmate children that are begotten as a result of a Beltaine union, are considered to be children of the god or goddess.

Did you folks know that this ritual was not peculiar to just pagan ritual? Did you know that within the jewish priesthood, the men were considered to be holy men to the point of being something other than men? That they weren't quite angels, they were archangels? And that they took on the names of angels to be known by with each other, and that although celibate in the sense that they had no wives, any illegitmate child they had would be considered a child of god?


So it was that the archangel Gabriel came to the virgin Mary, and they concieved child, and yet Joseph lost no face because it was the child of god.

It is actually immoral to believe in God as the reason to be a good person. A person should be moral out of a respect for other individuals or out of a love for all people — not because of fear of hell or because of instructions from God. Being a good person for good's own sake is more ethical than being good out of obedience or fear.
So... Do not belive in God unless you have to, you will be a better person.

wELCOME TO H2G2 Ashki1. I see you have not writen an intro on your page. What you write is totally up to you but it will alow others to leave you messages.

Alji (Member of The Guild of Wizards @ U197895)

To combine some things that Matholwch has pointed out:
Dogma is an inappropriate response to rapid change, an attempt to not come to grips with the social realities. Too rapid change, however, is not a good thing, as the traditions and continuities that give us grounding become undermined, leading to the alienation of "postmodernism", an essentially nihilistic and rootless philosophy. A lack of moral authenticity is the root of all evil.

Noggin

Perium, I thought Matholwch implied s/he is a Druid. That's quite different. I'm a Wiccan, by the way. And mass orgies form no part of any Wiccan celebrations I've ever found.

*Tears up Wiccan application form*

Hi Perium !

I'm sorry if I haven't been entirely clear. I am Druid, not Wiccan, quite a different philosophy in many ways (and I am a 'he' ).

As a student of world religions I am quite aware of what you speak. What I was getting at with Chauncey was not whether Mary committed adultery, but rather that relying entirely on out-dated dogma can make life and spiritual development very difficult indeed.

However your literal interpretation of early Hebrew society would indicate that if a randy Rabbi happened by, then it was alright. Sounds very Catholic that .

On a more serious note. You are basically correct, but the demystification of the immaculate conception will be of no help to those who have nailed their colours to the Bible. Believe me I have tried. Alji and Noggin are my witnesses.

Blessings,
Matholwch the Apostate /|\.

Welcome Ashki1 !
In your first statement you are quite correct. To aspire to live a good and honourable life is something that requires no God. I am sure that many of the humanist/rationalist/atheist contingent here do just that.

The pagans and other non-Abrahamics here, and there are quite a few of us, also aspire to be honourable and good. We have chosen to do so for personal reasons as well as improving our relations with the various spirits and Gods that help us understand "life, the universe and everything" (to quote some former person, now a spirit, who is now probably pissed and lying on his back in a field in Central Europe).

However, we must recognise that the Abrahamic contributors to the debate also wish to be honourable and good. The fact that if they aren't they get to spend an eternity in hellfire and damnation, should not make us doubt their good intentions (oh boy am I gonna suffer for that little crack ).

Believing or not believing in God is fairly irrelevant in terms of your personal goodness or honour. How you walk this earth is your own responsibility, do not lay it at the feet of other beings.

Blessings,
matholwch the Apostate /|\.

There are times Noggin that I could slap you.

Especially when you take an argument that's cost me days of hard posting to develop, and simplify it beautifully into four lines.

If I didn't like what you've said so much I'd.....mutter, mutter.

Blessings,
Matholwch the put in his place /|\.

Oh yeah! I was thinking that about Noggin too! He's too damn good with words, I'll take like 1000 words to say something that he write in 10.



Ste

Ste, it's what you get when you live too close to Llanelly!

Alji (Member of The Guild of Wizards @ U197895)

I'm not saying that it is a bad thing to be moral because of religous reasons, just that it is slightly more honorable/ethical to be good for purely humanistic ones.

>Besides, she didn't really have much choice - if you want to look at it from that angle, she was raped, 'cos from what I remember, nobody asked her if she'd be willing to accept. Although of course it's entirely possible (and probable) she was chosen because God knew she would be pleased to do it.<


Ah! Correct me if I am wrong, (and I may be) MaW, but I believe she was asked! She consented happily ("Be it unto me according to Thy will" and sung the Magnificat in response (which is quite forceful and not at all meek and eyes downcast, if you look at it.)

Also, I have to say to those who insist that Christianity is declining, that it depends where you look! In NZ too, every census there are always 'concerned' articles in the paper about the falling numbers (concerned in quotes because some journalists are quietly rejoicing). But contrary to what Matholwch has observed, go to the Open Brethren, Baptist or even some Anglican churches, and they're packed, even on ordinary weeks!

I see your point Perium, very interesting! Worth considering, as I am *not* a Biblical literalist, and so do not believe Mary to have been a virgin as such! (Though I *certainly* don't believe her to be an adulteress...

Islam makes it clearer, apparently, by using the same phrase for Jesus' conception as Genesis does for the creation, the equivalent of God saying, like Jean Luc Picard on the Enterprise D, "Make it so" - and it was!

Most religions (well the good ones anyway) seem to have a few ideas in common:

(1) everyone else is more important than you
(2) nature is important, so stop screwing it up
(3) how you worship is not as important as what else you do
(4) medicine, tools and other technology are gifts from (the) god(s), so use them to do good things instead of relying on prayer alone


All these apply to a lot of secular philosophies as well...

The ten rules of conduct are the first requisites of Yoga (Union);

Conduct of life in relation to others : _
(1) non-violence, (2) truthfulness, (3) un-thievishness,
(4) control of carnal desires, (5non-attachment.
Conduct towards oneself :-
(1) cleanliness, (2) contentment, (3) austerity,
(4) study of sacred books, (5) resignation to God's will.


One who wants to realise God will have regard for all lives;

they will do no violence to anybody and will abstain from flesh or other kinds of food which can be got only by injuring others;

they will be honest and truthful as falsehood is a spiritual poison in whatever form it may be.

Nonviolence is the root virtue, as all evils, whether falsehood or theft or greed or lust, do some violence to some beings and the vow of non-violence, if strictly observed, serves as a preventive as well as a cure.

Alji (Member of The Guild of Wizards @ U197895)

"Everyone else is more important than you" doesn't feature in Wicca - at least as I understand it.

"Do as ye will, an it harm none" does, though. There's also "What is sent out, returns", which kind of encourages being nice to people. That doesn't mean they're more important. Actually, if you look at it from a certain angle, Wicca can appear a very self-centred faith indeed. However, this may be due to nothing more than its emphasis on finding your own path, and leaving everyone else to find theirs, rather than going out to convert the masses with fire and sword.

If Christians followed the teaching of Jesus, it too can appear a very self-centred faith but like Hinduism, it is the higher self, the Divine Self which is sought. In Buddhism the Divine Self is the Absolute and the goal is the realisation of Oneness with the Absolute.



Alji (Member of The Guild of Wizards @ U197895)

Well really, as I see it all the best religions have to be self-centred - if you're worrying about other people all the time, you're intruding on their own spiritual path and that's really rather rude. Help others, yes, but if you want to convert people, isn't it best to lead by example? Subtly, of course.

Not that I actually want to convert people - except maybe away from rampant evangelism.

I have to agree MaW. One good example is worth a hundred lectures. And getting someone to tell themselves something once beats someone else telling them a hundred times.
If you believe that finding their own path is a high-order good for someone, then not interfering is not self centred; rather the contrary. Support and example are harder than lectures, which come all too easily.

Hope I haven't pre-empted anyone's posting.

Actually my weakness is not fleshing out the basics with enough detail; it's quite useful when entries complement each other for detail/summary though.

Noggin