h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Our society has decided that the statement "every sin, big or small, is the same in God's eyes" is not the truth, but if you were to read in the Bible, God says that every sin is punishable by death unless you ask forgiveness from God, for that sin. So you see God is not just this horrible God who sits up there and laughs at us who are here on Earth. He gives us the choice to accept Him and His forgiveness or to turn away from Him and not believe He is there. So you see it is actually your choice whether you go to Hell or not. Don't even try to give me the arguement, What about those that don't hear about God, that does not pertain to you, because you have been told about God right here in this post.
Chauncey

Ask yourself this question:

"Why would Ste, or any other non-Christian, look in the bible and take what is written there as any sort of truth when they don't even think the God that is supposed to have inspired this text exists in the first place?"

How would referring to your bible convince us that the bible is true? This circular reasoning convinces noone but yourself.

If *you* want to do that and find truths in there then fair enough, but do not go around telling people that they are going to be eternally tormented ("God is not just this horrible God" I see...) for disagreeing with you. That is a sure way to start an argument where personal attacks are flung about. We are trying to keep this civil.

Ste

Sorry I didn't mean to say that any of you are going to be eternally tormented. I was just defending my side of the arguement.
Chauncey

You did in that you noted that we hadn't accepted your God so far, and didn't look likely to. And since we will not, eternal torment is in store.
I am just not convinced by the religion. Soz. I have read the Bible and find it interesting, but I seem to notice a lot of things that Christians don't like to discuss. When I read the Biblical bases for 'God's laws' etc. I often get a completely different interpretation. I wouldn't mind living by my interpretation of the Bible- it's what most Christians do, after all- except I am told by self-appointed experts that I would get it wrong and still be damned.

I can give the argument- what happens to those who don't hear about your God- because I am not just interested in me. Someone can only get me to accept a religion by answering all my questions about it, and tying up all loose ends, whether they apply to me or not. So far this question has elicited nowt but clumsy dodging. As it pertains to me, however, what if God's message is being wasted because it's spread by the most unconvincing people? The message may be valid, but if a political party's only representatives were dressed in pyjamas with orange flannels on their heads, and talked thru megafones full of interference whilst doing a ridiculous dance with their feet on fire, would they get your vote?
Not that that description applies to Christians in general or even the ones I have met. But I have taken their advice, gone straight to God's apparent word, and reached a conclusion totally apart from theirs... who's right here?

Hello,
My views on God and religion are.. I guess.. a little more lax. I really don't care what people believe unless they are trying to shove it down my throat. It's really only a personal way of finding hope and some sort of relief from the pressures of daily life for yourself.
I myself believe that there probably is some form of god-type thingie. But that most religions are.. how should I put this.. Control Mechanisms created by really smart men... At elast for their times. As a matter of fact, I just put up a paper I wrote for school that kind of concers this topic up on the guide. If you want to check it out..
it's on http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/classic/A836769

Have a nice Day/evening/noon/night/afternoon/whatever.

Someone brought up adultery earlier on today.

I think it is interesting to note that even though adultery is deplorable, the father of three different religions, Abraham, was guilty of it. And yet he is one of the most revered figures in the book.

In addition to which, god's protection was on the illegitemate son if not the covenant, depending on wether you're a moslem or a jew, or a christian.

Abraham, was not punished in the way that David was........

Could it have been the mitigating factors? the fact that Abraham's wife was supposedly baren-even though she concieved some years later.

Nice one Perium !
However I think that Chauncey is forgetting the biggest adulteress of all time - Mary!
Strange how she was not stoned for her adultery with him, through an Angel no less?

Blessings,
Matholwch the Mischievous /|\.

Hey Chauncey!
Good to see you hanging in there ! Keep throwing those lefts!

As I have explained at length previously if your God is who you say he is we have no choices at all. Please refer back to my argument on omnipotence, omniescence and omnipresence. In such a set up 'free will' is an illusion.

It is strange that only the God of Abraham both demands your slave-like adoration, and threatens eternal damnation if he doesn't get it. You do not get people like myself threatening you with the Morrigan and the Babdh. No, instead I encourage you to find your own path in peace to the divine.

The rationalists and humanists here also do not threaten, they have no need to. To believe in goodness and the triumph of love needs no threats. Except of course in Christianity. Does this not disturb you?

Does it not perplex you that your God will happily condemn whole populations to eternal damnation for no other crime than not recognising him, no matter how good they were in their lives?

No wonder that in this educated age he is losing the battle for souls to other religions and philosophies. If the present rate of loss continues Christianity will be a fringe cult within two generations.

What a shame.

Blessings,
Matholwch the Apostate /|\.

Welcome Spiderra.
Religion as mass control eh? Nice idea, an absolute bu**er to implement. I think you need to read more deeply into the 'religious wars' of Europe. Most of the reasons for them were in fact socio-economic. Religion was merely the stated excuse. A quick study of the medieval papacy will soon change your mind. Master?-no. Puppet? - yes.

You also focus almost entirely upon Christianity, a minor religion in world population terms until the 19th Century. Even now it counts only for a few hundred million adherents and is declining rapidly.

Religion is really far deeper than a hope-mechanism whichever one you choose, it is an entire way of life, an eternal journey in search of truth. I suggest it is worthy of equal study with all the aspects of human life.

Blessings,
Matholwch the Preacher /|\.

Spiderra, what did your teacher think of it?

I have just read through it and find it to be a hoch-poch of misconceptions and ignorance of world history.

You can read about the First Crusade @

http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/firstcrusade/Overview/Overview.htm

follow the link for Peter the Hermit and the Peoples crusade.

One of the things that came out of contact with Islam was Science.
Unlike the Christian church which saw science as heresy, the Arabs had libraries which contained manuscripts of Greek philosophy, mathematics etc.
The numbers you can see on your keyboard we call Arabic numerals but the Arabs got them from the Hindus who were the first to use zero. The Hindus were also the first Astronomers, mathematicians.

Alji (Member of The Guild of Wizards @ U197895)

Re: "The truth", may I interest you in three short spiritual teachings on my intro page?

Re heaven and hell:

An emperor once sent his chief Samurai guard to a Zen Master to ask him whether there was a heaven and a hell.

When he arrived and posed his question the Master asked "Who are you?" On receiving the answer, the Master observed "You? A Samurai guard? How could somebody so clumsy and ugly looking be a Samurai guard?" Angered, the Samurai put his hand to his sword. "Huh!" said the Master, "Your sword looks far too blunt to do me any damage!"

The Samurai began to unsheath his sword.

"Here open the gates of hell" observed the Zen Master.

The Samurai resheathed his sword.

"Here open the gates of heaven" observed the Zen Master.

God does not wish to see his people perish. He loves us and wants us to choose the right way. As to your questions about those that never hear the Gospel. I sincerely hope that God will put someone in those peoples paths so that they know about Him and can make the choice. Don't start in on me with the stuff about not bothering me with the Morrigan and the Babdh, if you think that might in some way change my mind you are wrong. I believe fully in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Oh and what is this about you guys saying that Mary was an adultress?
Chauncey

Right in my opion, even tho i am a non-chistin, there must be a god, think about it, all the sicence guys say the universe started from the @big bang' but what caursed the 'big bang' and then what coursed that to start the big bang, then what started that and then coursed the big bang, its stange and hard to understand, but because we dont no how the universe rely started then we have to think, there must be a god, beacuse there is no other explaintion, what ut hink of this?

Chauncey:

I don't think anyone here has the aim of trying to change anyone else's mind. I mean seriously, what are the chances of any of us actually capitulating? What we are after (I think) is a rational explanation of why people believe in what they do. Just stating over and over again that you believe in God, and repeating what you think he wishes and does not wish gets us nowhere .

I think it is healthy for people to have their beliefs questioned (I know it is for me) from time to time, and I think this forum is doing a pretty good job of it.

"Don't start in on me with the stuff about not bothering me with the Morrigan and the Babdh..."
Then don't bother us about Hell. It's quite simple, no threats. And to accept that those who have never heard the gospel are doomed to eternal torment through no fault of their own does not become a loving God now, does it? (By the way, that's the sort of thing I meant when I said 'challenging beliefs'). So, what do you think?


Steve_oo:
"because we dont no how the universe rely started then we have to think, there must be a god, beacuse there is no other explaintion."
Ancient people used to think that the Gods sent thunder, lightning, rains, droughts and all of the weather. Now we know better. People a few hundred years ago used to think that all life-forms were made by a God (hence the word 'creatures'), we now know better. Why should a gap in scientific understanding necessarily mean that it is because of a God. Why can't we learn from our past and just say "We don't know, but someday we might"?

I'm not saying that this is an argument for God not existing, but that God as an explanation mechanism should have been dead and buried a long time ago. People believe in gods for a lot more reasons that just just explain "How".

In fact, you could say that religion is more to do with "Why" and science deals with "How". What do you think?

Ste

Very interesting, Spiderra. I'll have another look later...

Matholwch, I see that your case is pretty damming! But I happen to believe that Christianity has been misinterpreted, perhaps as a control mechanism?

I don't accept Chauncey's view of it - I believe in Christian Universal Salvation - God does not want to, and is not going to damn everyone to torment at all! God uses reincarnation, in my view - and will accept people at the end of the life in which they choose to regret and repent their sins and accept God. O/wise, it's back around the mulberry bush!

>You also focus almost entirely upon Christianity, a minor religion in world population terms until the 19th Century. Even now it counts only for a few hundred million adherents and is declining rapidly<

Matholwch, old son, I am a bit annoyed by that statement, and I accuse you of a little bit of wishful thinking there... Christianity declining rapidly? I don't think so!

Hi Della .
I think you need to check the records of recent Anglican Synod's. They are desperately worried about the decline of Christianity, for they have accurate figures.

The Vatican still counts entire countries as being Catholic and so imitates the Ostrich, despite the evidence on the ground.

The Presbyterian Church in Scotland has declared publicly that within a generation Scotland will be a land of pagans and atheists.

In my native Wales for instance, once the heartland of solid British Christianity, you are more likely to find a Chapel being used as a Carpet Warehouse or private dwelling than as a place of Worship.

Even the Evangelical and Pentecostals are in trouble, with rolls falling and new faces few and far between.

Go into your local big Church at Easter and you will find it full. Two Sunday's later and there's tumbleweed rolling down the aisles. Not many committed Christians there then.

The message of Christ, tied as it is to an outdated dogma, is being lost in the modern world. Most kids today could name the last 20 Playstation II games, but no more than a couple of the Apostles.

Depressing ain't it? It worries the hell out of me, even as an object of hatred for most Christian Ministers. For where are all these lapsed Christians going? What is happening to the younger generations as they mature and have no faith?

Who is to give the moral and ethical lead now? You won't find it amongst the neo-pagan faiths. We are too new and still shaking out our feathers. We don't have the infrastructure to support nation wide teaching in morals and ethics, even if we had the inclination, which honestly many of my fellows do not.

You certainly won't find it amongst our politicians, who seem mostly to be self-serving, war-mongering pawns of Globalisation (but that's another discussion ).

So unless you have evidence to cheer my old heart, I think my statement stands.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

So, being new to this debate and not having read the 500+ entries, I don't know whether anyone has raised the Problem of Evil yet - it seems a good place to start in philosophical consideration of the existence of God.

The Problem of Evil argument runs something like this:

God (according to Judaism, Christianity, Islam and similar) is said to be omniscient, omnipotent and supremely benevolent.

If (s)he were omniscient, (s)he would be aware of all evil.

If (s)he were omnipotent, (s)he would have the power to end all evil.

If (s)he were supremely benevolent, (s)he would wish to end all evil.

The conclusion is that if God possessed those three characteristics, (s)he would bring an end to all evil. Therefore the undoubted existence of evil proves that either...

(a) God does not exist; or

(b) God does not possess at least one of the above-mentioend characteristics.

Thoughts?

World wide, there are 2,000,000,000 Christians aprox. 33% of the total population. The majority of these are Roman Catholic (1,043,000,000). Islam is next with about 1,300,000,000 (22%) the Hinduism with 900,000,000 aprox. (15%). Nonreligious about 14%. And 16% the rest. Islam is growing and Christianity is declining. You can find a fuller breakdown of religions @

http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#AllBranches

Alji (Member of The Guild of Wizards @ U197895)