h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I tried to read it once, a long long time ago, Jez and gave up in disgust. I think I got as far as the second chapter.

It doesn't get any better.

And the quality of the writing, even allowing for the inevitable human errors in understanding, is appallingly bad, repetitive and formulaic, far too poor to be inspired by any of the dieties with whom I have had dealings and from whom I have received inspired poetry and prose.

The bible has its faults, but poor writing has never been one of them.

This is far too bad to be inspired words, and for that reason alone, discounting all the other arguments for and against, it is to be treated with scepticism.

And that's before you get to the racism and the sheer impossibility of the original premise.

--

Jez

<> Ok Math, I'll run with it...

One can give an assent of certitude with testimony from a sufficient number of sources, and I didn’t mention them all, e.g. even just within Josephus, he mentions 'Jesus, called the Christ' in another place, Annals 20:9:1, as the brother of James.

The apostle James the Less became head of the Christians in Jerusalem (see Paul’s letters generally, and the Acts of the Apostles) and he and Jesus are described as 'brothers' elsewhere: see for instance St Paul’s letter to the Galatians 1:19.

The reference by Josephus mentioned above is generally thought to be genuine. Origen cites it; I rather thought you were referring to that, but maybe not.

The other Josephus quotation I mentioned, the so-called Testimonium, is generally thought to have been edited, but not completely invented. Since 1995 when the similarity with the passage in Luke's gospel was noted, sentiment is rather in its favour. Besides, the quotation by Eusebius supports it, otherwise some might say it was a medieval forgery.

As regards the possibility of the Tacitus quotation being a forgery, this is not the majority view. It is in the style of Tacitus and fits well in the context. Suetonius also mentions in one of his passages, the Christians being punished by Nero, and one can suppose he was not referring to community service.

As for the letter from prison written by Mara Bar Sarapion, the Tetrarch Herod Antipas was not put to death as far as I know (was he?) so surely it cannot relate to him. Jesus appears to be the reference, and in context to, given the other people mentioned by Mara Bar Sarapion in the letter, Socrates and Pythagoras.

And Pliny writes c.112 AD of the Christians worshiping 'Christus' and refusing to worship the emperor.

Although various writers of the New Testament are, as a historian might say, biased witnesses, that doesn’t mean that they can be discounted. If we didn’t have them (and a few other things) one might be able to discount the extra-Christian references, but as things are it seems a bit stubborn not to accept that someone called Jesus ever existed.

Anyway, Math, whatever you think, make that two numeraries and two associates among your friends...

Re extrapolation, ictoan: ok, understood now. It depends where one starts from.

Hi Andrew

I think we've rolled this stone far enough now and that we can agree that every contemporary or near contemporary account can be debated ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I personally don't want to spend the next few years picking over the Greek

What interests me is that there is so little incontrovertible evidence for a figure of such importance to European and World History. The fact that we have to argue over such scraps is indicative of the paucity of reliable evidence. It also shows just how much later 'scholars' were willing to 'play' with what was available.

As you may have worked out I am the white sheep in my family, the remainder being staunch Catholics. I think the Jesuits did very well to keep me in school until I was twelve...

Despite my various philosophical onslaughts on Christianity I have respect for anyone who has found a spirituality that works for them, and in that I include Humanism as well as the more normal forms.

It is all indicative of our constant search for meaning and our native curiosity.

We will never know the whole truth, and that is a good thing. Perhaps I shall meet some of you in the rather grim afterlife of the Christian mythos, or upon the endless journey of mine. If the atheists are right then there's nothing to worry about after all

Until I next singe the King of Spain's beard...

Bright blessings,
Matholwch the Apostate .

Ok Math!
The stubble's feeling a bit frazzled now, but it'll grow back for the next time.

recalling from a post of yonks ago:
of course there's a 'sect' whose guardians won't allow you on the streets until your compulsory beard is grown "as thick as a clenched fist"
Interesting, that use of word, 'clenched'.

<<there's a 'sect' whose guardians won't allow you on the streets until your compulsory beard is grown"...

Interesting LL! A while back, I was reading (or trying to) one of Isaac Asimov's Foundation books (tedious!!!) and he had a character one of the main ones, who came from a culture where as good thick beard was seen as a sign of maturity and power...
Isaac Asimov came from a Jewish family, although he became a Campaigning Atheist. ( ) as the saying goes... As far as I know, Orthodox Jews have the beard thing, don't they?

Vicky

"As far as I know, Orthodox Jews have the beard thing, don't they?"

In my experience so do Ramblers and CAMRA members

And shanty-singers.

Even the women...



--

Jez

The other morning I caught a few lines from a current pop song on the radio:
"The Muslims, Christians and the Jews
All kill each other
They're so confused"
Bang on, eh?

<> (LL)

I just read that yesterday in The Bookseller of Kabul by Asne Seierstad, which is an account of her living with a family in Afghanistan. Ms Seierstad is apparently an award winning journalist. It's a very interesting book.

az

See this review at http://www.threemonkeysonline.com/threemon_article_asne_seierstad_interview.htm
She was on Radio 4 a few months ago.

I don't believe in the myth of Yeshua Ben Yosef, not because he didn't exist but because the god he represented is not worth worship.

The patriarchal god is based on ignorance of reproduction; from http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2007/04/biblical-creation-or-seed-and-potting.html
Thomas Acquinis (1225–1274CE) does not recognize the existence of any biological material suppled by the female. "As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power."

Acquinas was of course borrowing from Plato and Aristotle and their characterisation of women as empty vessels on this matter. Neither of them particularly committed to a patriarchal god as far as I can tell.

God is, that's a fact, that's not fiction.
Not all Christians are exclusivists and condemn those who don't beleive. Most will be pluralists or inclusivists and accept the truths of other religions.

<>

But in my opinion it's a fiction, not a fact. What can you point to in the real world that show's its a fact? Indeed, what do you mean by a "fact"? What do I have to accept as legitimate context?

Noggin

PS By the way, you got here straight from post 1, which you'll notice is *way* back in time, and rather a lot of posts ago.

A bit off topic but;

Have you seen this http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-034

Fiction. Complete fiction. Invented by the minds of earthlings long ago to explain the things that seemed unexplainable. Largely superstitious beings, creating an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent father-type being gave comfort, filled in the blank spaces, and could always be relied upon to perform the tremendous duty of giving answer to all those pesky questions: Why, why, why???
And, as in uffish thought he stood: the parent figure god type being says: Because!

The reason they have nothing to do with god, my friend, is that they know deep down that they can't find proof anywhere that god exists. So they tell everyone that proof denies faith, but they probably don't even believe in god themselves! They Know they can't satisfy non-believers like me with faith! Ineed solid proof if i'm going to believe in god. And so does the world.

I think the film that showed every one taking shelter in a Church from the raging floods and storm and everybody was praying to God to stop the storm when a huge wave came and washed the Church and it's steeple and all the people into the abyss.

Some people believe in Ghosts, others believe in God, and some believe in the Devil. I don't believe in any of that rubbish.

Hell! let em! cos while they are doing that they ain't interfering with my way of life and I believe in nothing that I cannot see or touch.
There is a logical explanation to most odd things that happen if one has the time and money to follow it up. Slainte.