h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

speakin' of possesion, that new movie "The Exorcisim Of Emily Rose" looks really scary to me and that stuff usually doesn't bother me in the least but this looks really disturbing.




J_42

i'd like to see that,,,,exorcism is a very real thing

I will officially refrain from making one of my typical very long posts about teenage girls' views of teenage boys, as referred to a few dots back. Consider it done.

Anyway, moving on... in reference to what language the Jews in Exodus might have spoken (if they existed): my knowledge of the Bible is incredibly sketchy, but judging from the Passover seder, they were slaves in Egypt for quite some time, weren't they? So, is it unreasonable to suspect that, like African slaves in English-speaking countries in the 18th and 19th centuries, they might have spoken the language of their enslavers (i.e. Egyptian), perhaps infused with some of the words or grammatical structure of their native language (whatever that may be)? But if they wrote sections of the Bible in this creole (again, if they existed and if they did so) would it have looked more like ancient Egyptian as we know it, or like another language. More to the point, as slaves, would they even have been literate? Isn't this a time where only an isolated few, usually priests, would be educated? And the chances are that a sort of rabbi figure among the enslaved Jews might not know how to read and write in the Egyptian creole the Jews might have used, but rather in a more ancient language - sort of like Latin for medieval scholars. This is all hypothesis, of course.

On a different note, I've been reading the book Claudius the God, Robert Graves' sequel to I, Claudius, and I was struck by the mentions of Christianity in the book. I loved Claudius's view that Christianity was an 'upstart cult'. He believed that the Roman gods would never give sway to the Christian God - just look where that's got us today. The Jews in the book are interesting as well. There's this fellow Herod, King of the Jews (grandson of the Herod that's mentioned in the NT) who is for some time under the delusion that he is the Messiah, thinking an old prophecy refers to him. Then he decides he isn't (because he gets another omen) and ... well, that's the part I'm at right now, so don't anyone give away what happens next!

In short, I suppose that, growing up in an atheistic household, it's just vaguely interesting to read about people who actually are religious, and who believe in omens and in worshipping gods, be they the Roman pantheon or one triple-O God or the Son of God. So yeah. Good book having to do with religion in a sort of way.

Right, you can all get back to talking now.

well that certainly was a mouthful but i believe they spoke aramaic

The dude's name was Moses, and he was well educated as he was raised as an egyptian. Jews weren't called jews then and they didn't speak the local language, to the egyptians they were "habiru" or foreigners. They came from all over, not just from the north. This is a likely but unproven source of the common name Hebrew. It wasn't until the exodus from egypt that these people took the name 'children of isreal', developed their own religion, by combining older cults with YAWEH beliefs, and a written language with the torah not far behind.

I think real history is far more interesting than fictionalized myth.

i agree...you can do anything with fiction

It's not "Suphur Outflow 16", it's Sulphur Outfall No.4
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alji

The problem with "real" history from the Bible is tying it in with the histories of surrounding peoples. If the Exodus events were the big deal that the Bible makes out, it *should* have left a mark on Egyptian history, but if both the bible and conventional history are correct the Exodus took place at the peak of Egyptian power in the XVIII dynasty, and left that power intact. Either the Exodus never happened, or it happened in a different place in Egyptian history and either biblical chronology or Egyptian chronology are wrong.

The earliest native written record from Palestine seems to be the Moabite stone, which mentions King Omri, and which is in a language related to Phoenician. Aramaic (Syrian) is a cousin which became the lingua franca of Assyria. Hebrew is unknown in the archaeology until the Persian period, as far as I am aware.

GK

thanks fer that gk

<>

You're right, I forgot about that bit. So if he was recording things, he probably would have done so in Egyptian, right? Unless, that is, that there were other languages that he learned in his education that served as a better lingua franca at the time.

<>

Where did they come from, then? What were their ethnic origins? And I find it very difficult to believe that they didn't understand at least some Egyptian. If one people is placed in close proximity to another for a prolonged period of time, they're going to pick up the lingo. Countries in Asia and Africa that were formerly colonised by European countries now make use of languages like English or French or Spanish as the primary language (as in Mexico) or a common secondary language (as in India). How could the-people-who-would-be-known-as-the-Jews communicate with the Egyptians, and understand what the Egyptians wanted them to do (like building pyramids and stuff) if they didn't understand the language? I think it hardly likely that the Egyptians would have abased themselves in order to learn their slaves' language.

<>

So remind me why we're discussing the Torah as if it's fact?

One of the big flaws in an attempt to use Exodus as a historical source document is that the Egyptians don't appear to have actually used that many slaves in the building of the pyramids.

Maybe its the whole "look, look I'm being oppressed," thing again? Or perhaps its intented to help justify the lands the author claimed for his people "we was oppressed, we did our time, we deserves it, yes my precious," possibly combined with "nasty Phaoroahses takes it from us".

alji, I'm really amazed at that bit of research!

Someone also mentioned a phosphorous outfall...

Would have been even more impressive if he'd posted links!


az

Yes, it is impressive, isn't it? Alji, how did you do it? Can you search for words within a thread?

quite the list

Links, eh? Forty seconds of shell script later: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=2019&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=6326&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=9558&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=9576&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=9749&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=9884&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=9911&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=10326&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=10327&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=10330&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=10331&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=10333&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=10335&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=11075&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=11127&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=11132&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=11138&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=11349&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=11365&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=11373&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=11424&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=12416&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=12421&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=12431&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=12435&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=12853&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=13013&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=17639&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=17659&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=19715&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=20865&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=22587&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=22677&show=1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=25312&show=1 If Alji's anything like... some people, he downloaded most of the debate thread ages ago. Actually, it would be pretty easy to write a script to automatically download it all into a text file, and to format it all nicely by stripping the unnecessary stuff. Once you've done that, grep can do the rest. :) Yes, some of us are indeed that sad. But not me. Oh no. <s to hide TheologicalDebate.txt> - Jordan

Toxin @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/classic/FFM55607?thread=192835&skip=22678&show=20#p6430143

alji

I've downloaded it in chunks of 200 posts.

I've downloaded some intersesting bits, but largely I simply read it in 100 post chunks, using a bookmark system like this http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&skip=25300&show=100 Jez - who doesn't look things up but relies on her memory for stuff like this :D

Blimey some of you taake this very seriously...even more seriously than those of us who eschew the comfort of a warm bed or the glorious sunshine of a warm summers day to come here and "share ideas".

Not that taking it seriously or more seriously than I is a bad thing just, just a mildly surprising thing.

one love