h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

How about this one - modern Christian ideas of 'speaking in tongues' are completely opposite to those in the bible.

In Acts, the disciples are gifted the power (by possession by the Holy Spirit) of being heard by every person present in their own language, so that no-one needed an interpreter, whereas now people 'speaking in tongues' are incomprehensible to everyone present except one or two people who 'interpret' the gibberish they spout.

The languages are never real.

Now, when heathens are 'possessed' by their gods or goddesses, the words are in the language of those present. We know that the 'medium' is human, and is relaying the experience using their own bodies, and we do not expect them to start speaking in Old Icelandic, or even in modern French, unless they are a speaker of that language.

What is everyone's tale on this?

Jez

How about this one - modern Christian ideas of 'speaking in tongues' are completely opposite to those in the bible.

In Acts, the disciples are gifted the power (by possession by the Holy Spirit) of being heard by every person present in their own language, so that no-one needed an interpreter, whereas now people 'speaking in tongues' are incomprehensible to everyone present except one or two people who 'interpret' the gibberish they spout.

The languages are never real.

Now, when heathens are 'possessed' by their gods or goddesses, the words are in the language of those present. We know that the 'medium' is human, and is relaying the experience using their own bodies, and we do not expect them to start speaking in Old Icelandic, or even in modern French, unless they are a speaker of that language.

What is everyone's take on this?

Jez

Oooops...

Three posts?

Sorry, don't know what came over me

Jez

Well, what actually happens when you are 'possessed' by your gods or goddesses? What is the point of it (as in, *why* does it happen), what happens as a result?


az

in some cases there have been reports of the power of healing among charismatics

No voices talk through me execept my own soul and spirit

Joe_42

That's the original subject, and to start over again:
I think God, the one referred to in the old and new testaments, is a fictional character created by man to supress and control the masses. I also think Odin, Thor and that bunch are also fictional. I don't buy into the Spirit of Mother Earth either.
Creating Adam and then Eve has ticked off women or centuries. Good job, we get a man and a woman in the perfect place, on a perfect planet with perfect weather and they're in a garden that supplies all the food and water they need. That's not enough, God has to add a "forbidden tree"-for what purpose? That's not enough so entertain so this God has to tell these beings that they can't eat from just this single tree. That's not enough, so God has to tell them if they do they'll acquire this knowledge thing, as if the beings could comprehend what knowledge was as they had none. This is like trying to explain electricity to a five year old. That's not enough because they don't eat the fruit so God has to supply another creature to constantly taunt his beings until they DO eat the fruit which is obviously what God wanted to have happen-now THAT'S entertainment. Evil, but it must have been fun to watch!

Hi Jez

I was taken once by Loki as he needed to talk to/test a friend of mine. I have no recollection of what I said or did. Apparently I capered about like a madman and spoke in good english. Not bad for a welshman with little or no knees to speak of.

The gibberish I have heard in evangelical ceremonies/rituals is as close to mass hysteria I have ever seen. The desperation to connect to God, an angel, anything at all is quite saddening. if they actually sat quietly and listened to their own hearts they would achieve so much more on the journey to the meaning of the divine.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

Hi Dr.J

It is undeniable that the powerful have used religion to motivate and control the masses. They have also used violence, money, access to water and food, atheistic political ideology and philosophy. So what is your point?

You will rapidly find around here that the pagans/heathens have no problem at all with your denial of the existence of their gods. We respect your right to your own beliefs. Each man must plow his own furrow.

It is amongst the Abrahamic religions that we see a strange desperation to draw you into their beliefs/delusions. It is as if by joining them you are further justifying their faith, and if you reject them you threaten it. The atheist and the apostate must be converted because while they still profess intelligently thought through doubts they sow the seeds of doubt amongst the faithful. Obvious servants of the Enemy all.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

<>



Matholwch, I assume you are being provocative here... because you know that most followers of Abrahamic religions are not as you say. Rejecting my faith doesn't threaten me, or even annoy me, much as *some* atheists not a million miles from here wish it would.

We preach, most of us, because we want people to 'share' what we haver, not because their rejections scares us.

Hi Della

No, I wasn't being provocative. My answer was directed to Dr.J who, to my uncertain knowledge, is not a practicing Christian.

If you re-read my statement you will see it referred to the Abrahamic religions, not the individual members per se. The evidence though does support what I have stated. History shows many attempts by the Abrahamic Authorities (particularly Christianity) to convert, isolate, suppress or, in extremis, destroy the propagators of what they define as atheism and apostasy.

You preach because your religion demands that you do so. It is part of the creed of Christianity that its followers must spread the Word. It is not so long ago (well into the 1960's in fact) that rejecting such an approach could be very injurious to your health and society as any of the victims of the Misssionary movement can attest. At the very least your children could be taken away to be re-educated as little Christians, at worst you could face genocide.

So don't get preachy with me honey .

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\

Quite agree with Jez's point about modern day 'speaking in tongues' being effectively the opposite of what is portrayed in the Bible (mind you everybody in the crowd probably spoke Aramaic or Greek, and the same goes for the disciples), although it should be pointed out that a lot of Christians reject it for this reason.

But if you believe that your god(s) can possess you in some literal rather than purely figurative sense, do the similarities with speaking in tongues indicate that they are possessed by *something*, or do you think the state comes from within them? If the latter why don't you think your possession states are purely internally generated?

Noggin

I think possesion is the ability to be somewhat of a medium of things although I don't think you would feel possesion. What about guardian angel?!?! am I possesed by a bunch of fairys?! Altough that whole Jesus incident could have happened.


Joe_42

az said

>Well, what actually happens when you are 'possessed' by your gods or goddesses? What is the point of it (as in, *why* does it happen), what happens as a result?

1) You tend to feel as if someone else is there inside with you. Sometimes you are a complete observer, sometimes you share and have partial control. You speak, move, and sometimes you heal. And it's not you.

2) They ask. If you want to agree, then you agree. There is usually a period of preparation, if it is to be part of a ritual. The point of it is their business, normally.

3) You get insight into that deity. They give a gift of knowledge, sometimes more - healing of some sort is common. The last time, two people had healing, one from a back problem, one from a hand and body (bike accident) injury. Others present did not.

Afterwards, you feel bereft. But high. And - if you are me - depressed afterwards, for a while.

Jez

Noggin said

>Quite agree with Jez's point about modern day 'speaking in tongues' being effectively the opposite of what is portrayed in the Bible (mind you everybody in the crowd probably spoke Aramaic or Greek, and the same goes for the disciples), although it should be pointed out that a lot of Christians reject it for this reason.


Actually, in a town which was full of traders, chances are there were quite a few people for whom the native language of the disciples was different from their own.


>But if you believe that your god(s) can possess you in some literal rather than purely figurative sense, do the similarities with speaking in tongues indicate that they are possessed by *something*, or do you think the state comes from within them? If the latter why don't you think your possession states are purely internally generated?


I accept that some Christians are possessed by their Holy Spirit. I don't think that that is what happens when they are 'speaking in tongues' as the evidence I have from seeing 'possession' is against it - possession is for a reason, and what purpose is served for any god in having a follower spouting rubbish? It is contrary to the apparent purpose of Pentecost, which was to spread the word among the people there. I cannot imagine that seeing someone who normally speaks English spouting an unknown language and being translated for by someone else back into English is going to convince a Greek speaker of the truth of the message...

I don't think there are any similarities with modern 'speaking in tongues' with heathen/pagan possession. Speaking in tongues seems to be always a result of highly-charged services, whereas heathens are very calm and prepared about possession, and go into it completely sober, with no stimulants and no high emotional charge, trusting only in the deity concerned to treat them gently (which they have, in my experience, invariably done) and to return them safely to Midgard afterwards. The only similarity I think may be present is that the possessed often have a faulty memory of what they have said and have to be filled in by the others present.

I believe that the possessions I have witnessed are genuine.

I cannot convince anyone else of that, I know.

But there are things said which seem to be beyond the knowledge of the possessed and things done, in the way of healing, which are not easily explicable. And things seen, in some cases, which are not easily explicable either.

But as in all cases of subjective experience, there are acres of room for interpretation and dissent which is why this thread is over 25K posts long


Jez

"But if you believe that your god(s) can possess you in some literal rather than purely figurative sense, do the similarities with speaking in tongues indicate that they are possessed by *something*, or do you think the state comes from within them? If the latter why don't you think your possession states are purely internally generated?"

there are other states, Noggin, as well. such as 'visitations' i.e. when you are damned well aware that the god is with you - but outside, not in. Of course, that's a silly statement, in that any observer would say it's all taking place inside the head of the person being visited. But there you go.

And you get high, as with possessions. And you get information you didn't have before, and, amusingly, you usually find someone else gives you the same info they've had from the same god, but they do that spontaneously in the sense that you don't prime them or give clues.

And yes, I think Christians can have these states. The problem arises that I've yet to come across any pagans who experience anything similar to glossalalia (speaking in tongues) or being slain in the spirit or other states Charismatic Christians experience. Hel - when i was a Charismatic Christian *I* didn't experience those! On the other hand, from large and small Charismatic events I attended, I did get profoundly cynical about what most people appeared to experience, which didn't tally, as Jez says, with the Biblical accounts. There was also something about a lot of the experiences which made no sense on its own terms. Such as the interpretations of glossalalia supposedly also being directly from God, but the same interpreter would say the same things from different people, all of which would sound the same as when he (the interpreter) indulged in extempore prayer. I could understand using his using the same sort of phrases he usually used, but I couldn't understand being tied to the same conceptual framework - that would seem to indicate that two different interpreters would come up with entirely different 'interpretations' supposedly coming from the same source.

AFAIK, Dr J is a non-practising Jew..

Yeah, here I go, to throw a wild and crazy one out there: My guess is . . . mental telepathy.
Most people arguably think in their native language, no? So then if you communicated non-verbally through other means, the feelings and expressions would be most closely associated by someone else in terms of whatever matched to the best fit to something in whatever language it was that they spoke . Or that certain feelings and ideas in humankind are universal (Y'know, Jungian archetypes, 'collective unconciousness,' etc.).

Now I don't mean to sound like a bonehead by making an obvious no brainer , but the difference from benovolent spirits/ 'revelation' type of supernatural interaction and malevolent posession, would be that in the latter demonic type, the person being a 'medium' is manipulated and taken too much control of by some mean being?
Does that mean that other hypothetical people could theoretically possess each other psychically?
If so, how would that be different than hypnosis?

There was a case in the 19th century that I read about, where a man learned the trick of visiting a young woman psychically and tried to control her - he certainly intimidated her!

I don't remember the outcome.