h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

{Munchkin, was there thunder again last night as I slept REALLY badly?]

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The Towers?

{[B17]}

Zarathustra on kazoo?!
[-B-]

[op]

The Towers = h2g2 offices

Montana, blather or not I hear it enough to not let it pass by. Criminal justice can be looked at a few ways: the removal of a threat to society, the deterrent to future threats, and punishment for individual actions. Of these, I believe punishment is the least important, although it is absolutely the most emotionally appealing.

Also death taken as a punishment more severe than life imprisonment is itself questionable. This argument could take several directions depending on religious point-of-view - I'll just say that years of drawn out punishment vs a quick but discomforting injection leaves me thinking the years of misery is worse. Prison is not as pleasant as the picture you paint (the TV is tuned to "Jerry Springer," for one thing).

And to anticipate the next likely argument - education has long been proven a better deterrent than the death penalty. Give kids a good education and crime drops significantly. McVeigh's crime was in a different category so education would probably not help much there - but then it was highly unusual and not something we need to worry about deterring in general, simply because it is so rare.

Where are all these soap suds coming from?

I've just spent three quarters of an hour on the grass, in the sun, with my lunch. Wee Heee!!

*looks out her window at w*rk to see the fog and clouds roll in*

I can't begin to tell you how jealous I am, Munchers!

Loony, you're right. Not only has the FBI's failure to present all evidence to the defense team in the McVeigh team put off his execusion, it might have tainted everything enough that he will be set free. In which case, I fear, his desire to be killed - he has said as much - will lead him to commit another, possibly more heinous act. Scary.

Speaking as someone from Oklahoma, someone who had spent time in that building, and someone who knew people who were in the building, but fortunately not killed, at the time of the explosion, I find it very difficult to kep personal feelings out of it. In my mind, it comes down to this: The man knew precisely what he was doing and precisely the cost if he was caught. It was a price he was willing to pay. If he had weighed it already and found that it was worth it, do one of two things now. 1) Execute him or 2) Release him to the general populace where the prisoners will execute him. (Much as what happened to Jeffrey Dahmer.)

Now, Matina, if you would help me off this box I find myself on and find me a cup of tea, I would appreciate it greatly.

G7

Ah well, not to worry, it's clouded over again. I bet it rains on my way to my post work Friday pint

Well it's nice and sunny here. Shame the air conditioning in the office is as ineffectual as ever

Maybe the new office will have air conditioning that works properly, OP.

G7

Latest news on that is I won't hear till monday as one of the main people is off till then, ho hum.

Didi did did (and other teletype noises): latest weather is that the thunder storm just past us. As I can POOT in a couple of minutes I might just make it down to the pub/station before the next one. Have a good weekend all.

*Finds a soapbox in the centre of the room. Climbs up on it.*

I agree with d'E's purposes for capital punishment (protection of society, deterence, punishment) and also agree that it is not the best choice for the first two. As for the last one, I think that killing someone as punishment simply lowers us to their level. And if you're simply interested in revenge, why kill him humanely? Why not do it like they did in medieval times and throw in some torture, make it a public spectacle. We could burn him at the stake, drag him behind horses or do like MR suggested and have him drawn and quartered. All on TV, of course. If we're going to have state revenge, then why not go whole hog?

Revenge is not a motive to be proud of. In fact, it sounds like it was the reason for the crime in the first place.

Looney

I can't let you get away with your earlier post about McVeigh not knowing there was a creche in the building, without asking is that relevent?
Would it have made a difference if he had known? (I doubt it).


Despite the above I'm still against the death penalty, not because I believe it to be intrinsicly wrong, but because I don't trust the legal system.
It is all too easy for the case against someone to be beefed up by the prosecution, especially if the case has a high profile in the public mind and media, only for the flaws in the prosecution case to become evident years later.

In the UK we have had a number of cases from the 1970's & 80's where the evidence has been proved to be flawed, and the convictions overturned.

[Sol]

Well, the FBI just decided to postpone his execution for a month. The TV's tuned to CNN.

The death penalty is something that I have mixed feelings about. I agree with many people's points about how it lowers us to their level, life imprisonment is worse, etc. But from a long term view, without the imminent death penalty, some evil nutcase is going to think "What's the worst they'll do? Imprisonment. And escape is always possible...."

However, even with escape from the actual prison, it isn't likely that the criminal would be able to show his/her face in public again for quite some time, and would be a prisoner among free people.

It's never been an easy question for me, balancing the dangers of possible future dangers from a killer and reverting to the "Eye for an eye" philosophy which, while still considered carefully, is not enough to hold up legal matters with. "He killed my best friend, so I killed him."

I just can'twait until this is over with. The only thing that I can guarantee is that there was a certain law when the crime was commited, and ol' Timmy was well aware of that law. I may not agree with it, but that's what it could easily boil down to.

Bye, Munchers! I hope you have a dry jaunt to the pub!

OP, my fingers will remain crossed for you all weekend - or at least until they cramp.

GL, I agree that the death penalty is not preferable, but in some cases it is necessary, not as punishment or revenge but to keep something worse from happening. Which would have been better in the Dahmer case - a quick fairly humane state death or the (alleged) rape of a fellow inmate followed by being stabbed in the lunch room? Either is fairly gruesome, but one is certainly preferable to the other.

Bald Bloke, McVeigh has actually said that the children were the one group of people he regreted killing. I think that it would have made a difference in his decision of target. Although, the creche had been there for years, so it shouldn't have taken much research on his part to realize it was there.

The tragedy of the situation it that there is no "right" way to handle it. The best for all concerned would be a quick end to it. The longer he remains in prison, the more likely that his life will be taken anyway. It also allows for closure for the victums and their families. Is this a "good" thing? No. Is this a "moral" thing? Not in the slightest. Is this a necessary thing? Most definitely.

Unless there is a prison in another country that would be willing to take Mr. McVeigh and guarantee his protection and that of any other prisoners around him. Any takers?

The sun is breaking through here now! I think I will concentrate on happier topics for a bit.

G7

*floating in, definitely against death penalties*

Phil, now I know how you feel - I was interviewed today for a new job, one that I really want, and was told there was only one more applicant... and then told my reputation within the company (same that I'm working for currently) is very good... and that I'll probably be called to another interview next week...

*considers acquiring a new bad habit: biting her nails*

*decides to cuddle Springie instead*

But what exactly is "closure" except a somewhat arbitrary act that serves as a rite of passage from being injured to receiving recompense? For some, that means the death of the criminal, for others it lies in the conviction. At certain times in history, it meant receiving a goat and two ewes.

I think people make too much of closure. It does not end the grief or the suffering, it merely marks a turning point in the events, and that turning point can be anything we make it out to be. People waiting for the execution in order to experience the closure are bound to be disappointed by the anti-climax. When the wake up the next morning, everything will be the same as it was before.

OK, I'm off to brighter things now too.