h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Mandagora - I agree totally, you might enjoy this: /A744464

Justin - I disagree totally, but see no point in continuing the conversation.

Ben

Ommigosh,

Just like any relationship in one respect. Like all Christians, I met the Lord Jesus, and through Him, know God. Then I came to His Word, the Bible, and realised, (as I now know the Author), what it is.

Indeed most people don't 'end up' in my position. God does not save everyone, most go to Hell to await Judgement Day, and then go to a lake of fire.

All may come to Jesus and be saved (from sin and death) but most prefer their sin, ('my right to myself', 'being my own lord', from which springs all manner of sin).

I am as sure as I am of what my name is.

Justin

Steve,

If you knew the truth, and what awaits all who die without Jesus Himself, a moment after death, you would be scared out of your wits. This is not a game, and not a mere religion. This is of the same magnitude of seriousness as an imminent nuclear attack.

Sure, there are elements of fear in pagan religions too, but they are paper tigers. Almighty God does not lie, and when He has spoken He does not vary what He says according to the fashion of the age, or the date. All who do not believe Him have branded Him a liar immediately.

Justin

Almighty God does not lie, eh? OK.

1 Tim.2:3-4
"God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved."

2 Pet.3:9
"The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

So, on the one hand, everyone will be saved. But wait...

Pr.16:4
"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Nice of him to make us wicked people specifically so that he can torture us for eternity, wasn't it?

Jesus, being part of the Trinity, presumably also didn't lie...

Mt.28:20
"Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

Great, he's always with us. But hang on - he didn't really mean it.

Mt.26:11
"For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always."

Make your mind up, one of these has to be true and the other a lie, you can't have it both ways.

Ex.29:16-18
"And you shall kill the ram, and you shall take its blood and sprinkle it all around the altar. Then you shall cut the ram in pieces, wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and with its head. And you shall burn the whole ram on the altar It is a burnt offering to the Lord; it is a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the Lord."

Clear instructions - God wants burnt offerings, here's how to go about it.

Jer.7:22
"For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices."

LIAR! There's DOCUMENTARY evidence that he DID spake unto your fathers concerning burnt offerings. I hope your not telling me the documentary evidence is unreliable...

God said this in Genesis:

Gen.8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;

Then later, showed this to be a lie...

Mal.4:6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So, "I will not again curse the ground", unless I feel like it...

And finally, all the following need no comment:

1 Kg.22:23
"Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

2 Chr.18:22
"Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets."

Jer.20:7
"O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."

Ezek.14:9
"And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."

2 Th.2:11
"For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

H.

Hoovooloo,

I know God,you do not. I know what the Scriptures mean, as I know the Author, you do not. I am sorry you think the Scriptures you mention 'prove God is a liar', but that is because you do not know Him, and can see the words but cannot see The Word.

I could go through and refute your claims, but I will not bother, you will be converted one day,one way or another. There are no unbelievers the other side of death's door.

Justin,
How do you know what it feels like to be dead? You've never been dead before. And don't say 'it says so in the bible' because the people who wrote the bible weren't dead either. And don't try to pull the 'the bible is the word of god' line, because as Hoovooloo just pointed out, it is deeply flawed.

Do you not think that the idea that we must all fear and obey God, or burn in hell for all eternity is perhaps a little bit suspicious? I think that really your God is merely a tool for social control, and the fear surrounding Him is an excellent way to get people to conform. Not only have various people, monarchs and governments used this fear to control their subjects over the last 2000, you've tried to use it throughout this thread and others on h2g2. Sorry to disappoint you, but God is not as serious as 'imminent nuclear attack' and i won't be 'scared out of [my] wits' when i die.

Using such petty tactics, which as you haven't died yet are completely unfounded, hasn't helped you create a strong, flawless argument, has it? Have you ever considered the fact that you are using your oh-so-perfect God to manipulate and suppress? I doubt it.

My sincerest apologies for spelling your name wrong Hooloovoo

Oops, looks like i spelt it right all along . I blame the stupidly small green writing on the 'Who's Online' List. Stupid crappy Alabaster...

Hi Justin!

What do you prefer? Grass or clay?

Caper Plip

Monitoring.

That's an old joke now Beta isn't it?



Justin you wrote,

"Like all Christians, I met the Lord Jesus, and through Him, know God. Then I came to His Word, the Bible"

You claim to have "met the Lord Jesus" who died a long time ago. Please explain. You can't meet dead people as far as I know, and even if Jesus did manage to rise from the dead, he is no longer here according to the bible. You can't have met him. What did you mean?

Someone here says that you probably hear voices (presumably from your god or his son) inside your head. Is that right? That notion will sound more than just a bit spooky to most people, I guess.

Caper,

I don't play!

Justin

Ommigosh,

I am sorry you do not know already. This is standard to all Christians, (and I do not mean the vast majority of 'Christians' who are only nominals, and who do not know the Lord Jesus Himself, personally).

Jesus did rise from the dead according to the Scriptures. How do Christians know that? Because the Scripture says so? NO!! Because they met Him, or more accurately, Jesus came and found them.

How do I describe how I hear Him? Well, you will know if you are found by Him too. When you are standing in His presence there is no doubt who it is, and when He brings you into that which the Bible speaks of you know it is all true.

I suspect it sounds spooky to you,but you are going to meet Him one day, and you will understand.

You are right in that Jesus went phsically to Heaven, but I mean that we have met Him spiritually. There is no such thing as distance in spiritual things.

Justin

I'm outta here. I'm sure this thread will come to a speedy resolution; Justin either saving everyone, or else everyone else convincing him of the error of his ways, because don't "conversations" between fundamentalists and modern, relativistic, critical thinkers always turn out like that? I can't imagine that it will just go 'round and 'round until people get fed up and leave, possibly in anger.

I've talked with enough fundies that I don't find it amusing anymore. Everyone else, enjoy.

Justin, goodbye. If you're right, and I'm saved someday, then I guess I'll see you on the other side. Until then, we don't really have much to talk about.

Hi Justin!

What do you think the Lord would choose if He was asked?

So Justin,

I point out that the main recruitment tactic used by religious fundamentalists is fear. Then you say (paraphrasing) "not just any fear, but the worstest, nastiest, horrific fear you can imagine". Is that supposed to convince people? Thanks for confirming this for me.

I don't think people should descriminate between religious fundamentalists. Christian fundamentalists are the same as al Qaeda, the same as the Taleban, the same as ultra-orthodox Jews. All of these people, including you Justin, use fear and hatred to control and manipulate. And I'm not even sure you know you are doing this!

You are part of the same phenomenon, the same problem that stretches from Kansas (creation-"science") to Kabul, from Jerusalem to (apparently) Glastonbury.

Perhaps we can move this discussion on to a wider level instead of engaging Justin on his small scale (before everyone unsubscribes). How can the world combat religious fundamentalism? Has the world even recognised this problem?

:/

Ste

Caper,

No Christian would do anything so stupid. He is Almighty God, and doing that sort of thing is offensive to Him.

Justin

Steve,

You are even partly right on what you say. ALL religious people who have fundamentalism in their ranks WILL turn to murder and all sorts of horrors to further their religion. Al Qaeda, The Inquisition, The Crusades, Hindu/Buddhist conflict, are all good examples. However, a fundamentalist Christian is a lover of men's souls, as their master says 'love your enemies'. Plainly anyone who does not do what the Lord Jesus says is not a Christ-ian, a disciple of Jesus Christ, is he?

So, in brief, their are two camps, religious fundamentalists, and Christians. One camp are killers and use all the tactics you mention, and the others are lovers of men's souls, and would never do them any harm.

It is impossible to forcibly convert, or manipulate anyone into being a Christian. No one can 'join the church' when they wish either.

Justin

Playing tennis is offensive to God?

Does that mean that Lleyton Hewitt has sinned against God by winning Wimbledon?

Justin,

Who are you to know the difference between a fundamentalist Christian and a fundamentalist Muslim, Hindu or Jew? As a fundamentalist yourself, you're hardly going to have the most objective stance. I don't see any difference between the way that you use fear to manipulate, and the way that such tactics are used by other religions. I suspect claiming to be a "lover of men's souls" is a line often used by many other religions to quickly and effectively veneer over the similarities between themselves and other fundamentalist groups. How convenient it is that out of all the thousands of fundamentalist religions in the world, yours is the one whose members truly love those they vicitimise, because after all, you care. Mmm, i can almost smell the hypocrisy seeping out of my monitor...

<>

By your own little piece of reasoning here, i think you fall firmly within the former category. Ste (that's *Ste* not Steve) merely pointed to a few tactics that you've used on this very thread. Perhaps you should think a little harder about the way that you've posted, and the hypocrisy in distancing yourself from so many other fundamentalists.

While it may be impossible to actually force someone to attend church, or force make a hardened atheist to instantly believe, it is possible to manipulate someone into being a Christian. Putting the false fear of God into an unbeliever, and then offering them eternal paradise as an alternative, sounds very manipulative to me.

Anyway, this argument is just about exhausted now so unless you can think of something terribly clever to say there's no point continuing it.

Ste,

I don't think the world has recognised fundamentalism. Although the whole 'war on terrorism' thing has raised many people's awareness of fundamentalism as a form of religion, many people do not realise that such ignorance does extend further than Islam and the caves of Afghanistan.