h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have to agree with you, Bagpuss.... more of a shuffle of faith over years constituting a leap... I like that!

I don't remember exactly what it was that moved me from mere knowing there was a god of some kind to Christianity... I was young, though I remember being extraordinarily depressed and about as low as I've ever gotten (a personal health scare and the death of my grandfather in about two months, if I remember correctly). I may have decided that I really hadn't any other choice; that in the least, it could do no harm. And hey, if I was right, that was one more point in my favor. I think it was more a "let's believe this" kind of thing where I knew nothing else and could see no other logical alternative. It didn't change me over night. Not at all. I had some reason to survive, but that was all, and it was enough. Faith and true belief came later, over the years that have passed since that night, and everything I've learned and seen and heard since has proven over and over that what I believe is correct and true (like, I was watching this one documentary on Neanderthals on the Discovery Channel a few weeks ago and they were talking about how the human population seemed to go through a bottleneck at one point (er, can we say Flood?) and that there were three species of humans after it (ie, the Noah's sons (Shem, Ham, Japeth) familes); however only one survives (homo sapiens sapiens; Japeth, I think) Odd and interesting). But that's just my little story, and I'm sure there's as many as there are Christians.

A book I like on this very subject is "Surprised by Joy" by C.S. Lewis. Its good on the topic of the psychology of salvation.

hope that was coherent, later.

I didn't say it was necessarily difficult; I just meant I didn't know the answer. Obviously a lot of people do and it seems that an interested agnostic is one of the more likely people to become a Christian (tales of amazing conversions notwithstanding). Thing is, I don't really know what to tell someone to get them to make up their mind. "Christianity's great and God's really cool" doesn't seem to cut it, somehow.

Whoops, there I go responding to old posts again.

Hmmm... I don't know, and obviously neither do you if you're agnostic (no offense, it's just a pun on the word agnostic, which means "doesn't know").

I think at some point you must decide on whether you believe in Jesus, not yet to trust him for salvation, but whether you can believe that he actually was the son of God, lived a perfect life, and died on a cross for the purpose of atoning for your sin, and then rose again the third day. That is the first step to trusting, and I do not mean that you cannot dooubt these things, because we all doubt in them at times. What I am asking is whether you can ignore your doubts and make a choice to believe. This is not the same as becoming a Christian, but for some people it tends to happen all at once.

There's a really good quote from the Silver Chair that Amy has on her off-site homepage, perhaps she'll grace us with it.

Chap who said it was Jim-Fred Pascal. The French talk about "le pari de Pascal" and I've heard the lovely BB say in a radio interview that this is her stance.

Pascal would have been an ace Researcher for the Guide but not a keen intergalactic traveller. He said, "Le silence eternel de ces espaces infinis m'effraie."

*thinks frantically, can't remember the quote*

hmmmm........ I guess I need to check what I've put on that site once in a while, eh?

*checks page*

O, *that* one. You'll have to all find it for yourselves, I just realized that it's copyrighted material and the Mod's would delete it before I'd finished copy and pasting it. (It's in the "Great Hall" portion of the site, about an eighth of the way down the page). Gosh, I love that quote... I get goosebumps every time I read it.

That's true, I forgot about that. Hmmm... Those copyrights are running out fast, not too long and I'll be able to post the whole series somewhere. Cool.

Yeah... that'll be cool.

Just out of curiosity, did you email me with a little note that went "anyone who reads one of these lists has far too much time on their hands"?? Cause I got one of them, and it drives me crazy when people I can't identify email me... or when they don't identify themselves. Just wondered, since it seemed like you'd visited my site recently. *shrug*

Oops, its seems I'm off a little on my copyright law, I thought they expired in fifty years, turns out it's seventy. Oh well, twenty more years then, that's okay, I can wait.

No, I didn't send the email. If I send wierd emails, they're always orginal but random discussions between my imaginary multiple personalities. don't ask

Hey, everyone, my sis says, "Hi."

As the "interested Agnostic" I just want to say thank you to all of you for letting me get these thoughts of mine I have had rolling around inside my head for the past few years out into the open. To answer Amy earlier query what "wall" is preventing me "from moving into believing especially with my philosophical background". I won't say it is Philosophy that's made me feel like this. I thought about this for a long time and many years before I ever went to University (though possibly this was as a precursor to the whole Philosophy thing.) If anything what doing Philosophy has taught me is to analyse the arguments people (myself included) make in support of the points they want to make. It's also meant that as you examine your own ideas (and indeed philosophies) about things like ethics and so on that there is a fair amount of introspection going on (Do I *really* believe that? Does that argument persaude me?)

In the end, the problem I have I know I don't belive those things yet. I could try going to church now for example but I would feel that was forcing something, that if I believed it, I would believe it without need to force the issue, so to speak. Similarly, to masquerade like that seems to me...well...wrong. In-authentic.
You have all talked to me of "shuffling" from trust to Faith and Doubting yourselves at time what you believe, (Thank you again for all being so candid) but that's what I mean. You *really DO* believe it and you can return to it like an anchor. I don't feel that I do believe it; not like that. I'm intertested,sure. but nevertheless....it's difficult isn't it?

It's late and I probably haven't put that very well (even for a Philosopher)

I'll get there eventually but I'm swimming out in depths at the moment (to extend the analogy) behind me is the shore ahead is the anchor.

I'm treading water.

Clive.

I'm very, in fact, esctatically (geez, I can't spell that word to save my life) glad that you consider philosphy a good thing where religion is concered; in fact, I'm glad that everyone else here seems to think so as well. So many people think that philosophy can exist only in place of religion... where in fact, one causes the other and verifies/debunks the other.

I'm also glad, Richard, that you find yourself having a problem because of your belief that you must wholeheartedly go into something like this. Too many believers (of any religion) simply go through the motions because that's all they've ever known-- I like the analogy "going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going into a barn once a week makes you a cow/bull." I don't know how to tell you how to make the jump from feeling unauthentic... and I don't think I should. It seems to me-- and correct me if I'm wrong-- that you *want* to believe-- not necessarily in God, but in something, and can't quite convince yourself of its existance or non-existance. I know not how to show you "truth" as you're searching for it, though I desperately want to. You, thankfully, seem to be doing plenty of searching on your own... but I have to give one piece of advice that I give all my friends, Christian and nonChristian alike: read the Bible. How can you believe in something which you know little about ("how can they believe if they have not heard...")? I don't think it'd be like church-going would be for you-- assume it's simply a book to start out with. Analyze characters and themes, if you feel like it. I have a feeling you'll get somewhere with the simple reading of it.

*shows him the life preserver but can only shove it in his direction*

Me be praying you figure stuff out.

~Amy

Thank you for being candid Clive. Most people I have met do not want to discuss issues. I hope you will find a way to believe, but I know it may not be easy.

Just remember, if strange things start to happen in the world (mass disappearances and the like) you will find what you need to know in the book of Revelation (and don't accept any marks on your forehead or on your hand, no matter what).

Grace and peace to you, from our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Grief, do you know they're making a film of "Left Behind"? For those fortunate enough not to know, this is a Christian fantasy trilogy in seven volumes (so far) which begins with the rapture whereafter all who do not believe are left to fend for themselves. The books are for sale at our church just next to the one about a guy who single-handedly caused the property boom by getting rid of a picture of a dragon from his mantlepiece.

*realises he's not supposed to be scaring Clive (or Richard) off and shuts up*

Can I say that if you go to church without believing it wouldn't necessarily be hypocritical. You could always not go forward for communion and not join in with anything else that you feel uncomfortable with. Of course how much you'd stand out doing that rather depends on which church you're at...

They actually already made the movie... it's been out for months (and oddly enough, was out in video before in the theatres...) in the US. And it's horrible. The dialogue... the acting... everything. If people really want to know what's going to happen when Christ comes back, read Revelation, for goodness sake! Never settle for regurgitated, Hollywood-ized stuff! *annoyed* I have not read the books and plan not to... cause I know I'm not going to be "left behind" and besides, who wants to think about the end of the world/universe as we know it when there are other slightly more important things to do?

(sorry, that was me spazzing... ignore all of that mess...)

I've read the blurb and first page of book 1; mostly through tears of laughter. I worry about your recommending the Revelation, though; that's what all these idiots making the film have read. For a film dealing with Biblical powers etc. give me Dogma any day.

Hi folks! Glad I stumbled into this place! Fascinating conversations!

I think a big problem with people and faith is that they do tend to internalize their thoughts and doubts. People (for the most part) are uncomfortable discussing their innermost thoughts - especially if they're worried that someone may jump all over them for it. And that goes in both directions! People with a strong faith can be looked down upon, and if you don't have faith, people can give you a hard time for that as well.

I have found the the only way to grow and learn in your faith is to share with others, and research! Sharing with others not only verbalizes the vague thoughts you have, but brings other ways of thinking into play. I've had people share things with me that I'd never have thought of on my own, and it has opened whole new paths of thought for me!

The research is very, very important. We're limited in what we know, so we're limited in what we can ponder. Reading new material on something we're interested in gives us food for thought. Different authors have different takes on the same subject, and this also broadens our horizons.

Every time you pick up the Bible you are in a different place in your life. I'm amazed that the passages I've heard since childhood can suddenly take on different meaning once I've come to a different level of understanding in my life.

I wouldn't feel hypocritical about going to a church if I was questioning. The only way to find answers to your questions is to go out and look for them, and what better place to find answers about religion than at a church? Maybe the preacher has something to say that you hadn't thought of before. Sometimes I'll listen to someone talking, and I could swear they could read my heart and mind, for they are speaking right to me about just what I need to hear. It's also interesting to hear the clergy discuss what scripture means. You understand so much more when you have the history behind the scripture.

Many churches also have groups that meet to discuss discernment. Folks that have questions get together and discuss issues. These are fascinating discussions! I think the best part about getting involved with a group is that you find out that you're not alone with your thoughts and misgivings.

Okay, I've rambled long enough ... but I figured that a Forum called "Ramble" was the best place to do it in!

Buh, bye...

I find h2g2 to be quite good for discussing things without getting jumped on. I've been some places where a thread like this would have degenerated into a flame war along the lines of:
"Anyone who believes in God is a ****** stupid ****!"
"You will burn in hell, heathen!"

So all in all, we're not doing badly.

I just realized last night when I was thinking about this, Clive, that I didn't specify what the "wall" was... I meant to say, what's holding you at bay? Why can't you whole heartedly believe or disbelieve? What are the little nuggets of information that cause the doubt from both sides? (ie, some semblence of evidence that a god of some kind exists/doesn't exist).