h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I like the entry Peregrin, it's a nice idea.

I often wonder about religion and church and God. Most of my family are religious (Mum, both Grans, various others) and evenly split down both Catholics (Gran1, Both Aunts and attending families) and Protestants (Mum and Gran2) I've had friends who were believers (she was Evangelical, I think) and the other sort, die-hard atheists. So now I presented with somewhat of a dilemma. I look at these people who do believe in God, who go to Church and *REALLY BELIEVE* and I think 'Do I feel the same way as them about God?' Do I agree with you hasty sketch of Christian at the top of the entry? And on this I confess that I don't. I don't feel that I do have the sorts of convictions about religion that they do. And yet, I also look at myself and think, 'So then, do I reject the notion of God?' Well, again, no not really. If ultimately someone were to tally up all the Do belive's against the Don'ts I probably be in the Do's but by, I feel, a very faint margin. I'd probably be declared agnostic. But you see, that's not quite it either because I don't think I can't know God, just that I don't think I do or am ready to commit myself to that yet. I'd feel somehow fraudulant if tomorrow I said 'Right that's it, I now belive in God, The Bible, the works, everything.' (Is this making any sense?) If I were to try and characterize my position such as it is at all it ould probably be: 'A cautious reservation towards...Um...I-don't-know-quite-what-yet.'

Well so anyway, that's it. Make of me what you will.

Oh! And for my disertation next year I plan to research Sartre's Existentialism and Ethics. - It does kind of hinge on the fact that Sartre didn't believe there was a God.

Clive

i think that at some point or another many people feel like this. it's growth. i can relate to some of what you wrote.

as a child i was in a private christian school. i believed what i did because i didn't know that there were other beliefs or un-beliefs. my parents and relatives are christian-protestant (except uncle in germany-catholic) and i grew up with it. as a teen, i was in a public school, but attened a christian group on some weeknights and every other weekend. it was good, good people, good thoughts...but then i began to really look at it. why do i think what i do? can i have these same convictions based on proof i can find? and then i quit my school and went to a private christian school for a few months at the end of my senior year (they were making us do things in class that i didn't want to do and it was the only school i could transfer to) anyway, we had this cults and world religions class. and then i was a mess.

instead of me thinking... 'right, these things don't make sense, christianity is the only thing that seems true' which is, what i believe they wanted us to think. instead, i thought, wow, every culture, everywhere, from the jungles, to the deserts, to the mountains, to the cities, to the farmlands...every culture has 'invented' their form of religion, their 'god'. i saw this as a necessity of wanting to find something to explain the unexplainable and to encourage moral behavior. so then i didn't know what to think. began thinking that maybe everything was right and had no idea what was happening to me.

after that point, i wandered around...it's taken me a long time to figure out what i think and why... and i really don't have outstanding explanations for any of it. i do belive in christianity as the explanation posted. i still wonder if i can ever find that unshakeable faith that i once had. maybe i can. i still look for it.

we grow by the questions we ask, think of a child...why is the sky blue, why do i have to say thank you, why everything? we are all students of life and, i believe, children of God, the learning is never over.

this is a good page. and thank you for your posting. it made me think. (feels good to exercise that grey matter in this area!)

Thank you for you posting as well, it was nice to hear someone else's view rather than just leting it rattle around inside my own head ceaselessly.

I do rather feel that if someone were to ask me: "Do I believe in God?"....Well yeah but not with the kind of conviction or faith that I think it demands or ought to encourage. So then "Do I REALLY believe in God?" "Ah!" I say and that's kind of where I got stuck.

I was interested in your notion of growth and in truth I think it is something I might 'grow' into "figuring out eactly what I believe", as you said. But all of that is some time off yet. Right now I want to puzzle over this problem of 'deciding on how to have faith'. And truthfully, I fear making that decision not because I think I might be wrong or end up looking foolish or anything like that but that I don't feel a half-arsed attempt is worth it. Didn't someone once say: "Either God does exist and you can abide by those teachings or you can ignore them and run the risk of punishment or God does not exist and you've got no problem." It feels all-or-nothing, either I do belive in something of which I am uncertain or I do not. A half assed commitment seems to me worse than resigning myself to puzzling over it for a bit longer.

Clive

You are exactly right. It is a matter of all or nothing or to put it in the words of Jesus: "If you are not for Me, you are against Me."

And that I think is what bothers me. I'm not *against* God. At least I hope not. But as I've outlined above when I look at myself and question my beliefs and I come to looking at my religion, I don't feel that I do really believe. I was looking at the fantastic entry on Agnosticism http://www.h2g2.com/A446339 and I recognised some of what it said The definition of agnosticism as "without knowledge" is achingly familiar although I feel it's more more "without sureity." The entry on Atheism http://www.h2g2.com/4477A25 said the difference betwen Atheism and Agnosticism was a "leap of indecision" and that an agnostic would ackowledge the possibility of a higher power whilst not necessarily believing it. That includes God, Gaia and Aliens. I certainly do not believe in aliens. and still I'm puzzled. I think I'd *like* to belive in God but what's the point in asking for proof (I'm not going to get it, what would constitute proof? and that's not the point is it? If I did believe in God. I'd really belive it I wouldn't need it to be proven to me.)

All or nothing you said?


Bugger.

Um, Louis, when precisely did Jesus say that?

even the demons believe in God. evidence is all around you. from the miracle of birth to the passing of life, from the trees to the smallest of things.

Hmmm, let's just go and ask a demon then...

he-he Merry Christmas to you too Bagpuss!
for everyone!

*********************************

I worried that I might have seemed a little depressed in these postings,but I really wasn't trying to come across that way. I just felt in speculative mode and this seemed a good a place as any to give some of my thoughts an airing.

I have heard the 'the evidence is all around you' tract before. It was a favourite of a friend of mine. (I did, on a related note, hear about an interesting update to the design argument - forgive me, I can't remember whoose exactly and I'm probably about to butcher it's subtlties with my abridged version - walking through a field you discover a watch. The watch has been constructed with great skill and implies a creator because of the complexity of the design. Next to the watch is flower, so goes the argument, this living thing in this world is also designed which implies a creator for us also.
That being the set-up, here is a modern spin:

Our globe is surrounded by level of atmosphere that just so happen to shield out every harmful wave coming from the sun while still letting through all of its life giving energy. Now isn't that just a fantastic coincidence that that should be so, here, of all places where there is life on this planet that habours it so well?.
The author obviously thought this was a good idea.

As it happens, for my mum (V. Christian) for Christmas, I managed to find a book she wanted that works as a companion to the bible, a kind of reference guide to theology and the history. I couldn't help but have a quick flick through it before I wrapped it. There were passages on all sorts including the origin of Satan and the demons and their explusion from Heaven to 'below'. All in all I don't feel demons are particularly well disposed to come to my aid, firstly as I doubt that they and God are on first-name terms any more and also If I did manage to find and ask them, because they'd probably be all trying it on with the whole temptation thing and, to mix metaphors with crass abandon, If what I want is to get hold of the deity's e-mail, In the great disk-cleanup, I'll probably get sent to the recycle bin!

Merry Christmas! I'd rather have a .

I think you got the salient points of the "watchmaker" idea down, though I don't think it was intended as a definitive proof that God exists. I doubt anyone ever ended up a Christian by following logical deductions (though I have seen books that try to suggest such a chain of thought). Anyway, this forum seems as good a place as any for your musings.

Reading it back, that paragraph appears to consist of three entirely unrelated sentences. Oh well.

Sounds an interesting book. What is Satan's origin, then? Lucifer and fallen angels and stuff?

I'll tell you after Christmas. A dormant present, suddenly mummified in recent sellotape, would probably get some suspicous looks flung about on Christmas morning.


On the whole logical arguments for getting religion. There's a very good guide entry in here somewhwere. (again the name escapes me) but here goes: 'The-Guy-Who-Said:-Belive-In God-If-You-Like,-You've-Really-Lost-Nothing-If-You're-Wrong. Better-still-You're-Quids-In-With-The-Management-Afterwards-If-It Turns-Out-You-Were-Right-After-All. And-Atheists-Are-Really-Hedging-Their-Bets...'

- there you go then

I'll stick to my

Sorry I've not replied for a while, but it's all getting a bit serious for me (as demonstrated by the fact that I have "John Kettley is a Weatherman" playing as I type).

Anyroad, which religion do you choose on that basis? Most will tell you that you have to believe that one (sometimes pretty strictly). An episode of South Park I saw recently had Catholics, Protestants, Moslems et al disappointed to be told by Hell's welcome man "I'm sorry, the correct answer was the Mormons".

Um, I don't want to sound agin the idea of believing, though, 'specially since I'm Christian myself.

*restrains self very very very tightly from falling into another religious debate seeing as they're cirtuitous and get nowhere in the long run*

*can't restrain*

Hmm. I've done it before on the other forum, but I don't think any of you ever read it... my religious background, first and foremost. I was raised in a somewhat Christian family, my mother always took/takes me and my little sister to church every Sunday for worship services and Sunday School. My father was raised Presbyterian, I think, but mainly as a "Sunday Christian." My mother was raised Methodist, and therefore I spent the first few years of my concious youth going to a Methodist church. Then we switched over to American Baptist, where I be today. Religion of any kind was never *pushed* in my house-- there was never the "go to church or DIE" kind of attitude I've seen in some of my friends' houses. Since my dad was an agnostic at best, there was no logical reason to push religion unless one wanted to become a hypocrite. Since I was about ten, I've become a Christian, fallen, rededicated, fallen, rededicated, ad infinitum, and learned quite a bit about other religions in the world, mostly in the last few years. Unlike what I've heard so often, the more I learned about other religions and cults, the more that taught me just what my beliefs were. I fall into the category that believes all life is precious and irreplacable, that God is beauty, and that beauty is a window to God. (Notice I didn't say that beauty *is* God, that would be Sufuism, if I'm not mistaken). I believe that there's an all-emcompassing logic to the universe, that humans are fallen from the moment they can think for themselves, and that they can be saved in some fashion or another. Not a typical Christian viewpoint... there's a bit of Sufi and Zen philosophy and far too much poetry by Rumi thrown in there for good measure. All that's just so you all know where I stand.

About the whole what you see teaches you about God thing... I don't know that that's entirely true in my point of view. It's kind of like art (Dante said that nature was God's artform)-- how much does a single piece of artwork, even ten or twenty, by a single artist tell you about the artist themself? Some, but not the entire story. The common use of the color blue can mean either they're often depressed, or that they just like the color blue. A constant circle in some part of a painting can mean one of a million things, but that's left to interpertation by the viewer (and one of the coolest things about art is its ability to be interperted). However, it's always best to go back to the original artist to see if your interpertation is correct. And that artist can tell you things about the painting that you would never have thought before. It works sort of the same way with God. You can only learn so much about God from the natural world. The natural world is layed out in a seemingly logical form. Thereby, you can possibly conclude that God is logical. Then you realize there are platypuses and the whole logic argument gets thrown for a loop. There's one part in CS Lewis's The Four Loves that goes something like "Looking at a mountain never taught me anything about the hugeness or the majesty of God. But that mountain gave me a glimpse of what hugeness and majesty *meant* and looked like." (NOT verbatim) So that's my take on the watch thing.

As for faith... I guess that's something you learn, and something you almost grow in to. It doesn't come as part of the package deal of being a Christian, and even if it is, everyone gets a slightly different package. Faith grows, as James said, through perserverence, and as a new Christian you quite literally have Paul's babyfood faith. It's hard to handle the difficult stuff when it's that new, but if you do, it makes your faith stronger. The more trust you learn, the more faith grows, and vice-versa. I don't know much else to say without getting into deep theological waters that I don't feel like treading right now.

*scuttles back into the corner from whence she came, waiting for all the interesting debates she may or may not have sparked*

Interesting discussion here.

In my experience, it is rare to find people who have come to salvation through simple participation in an organized religion, and I have come to believe that this may not be a new trend. There is more power in a single conversation than a thousand half-heard sermons. Salvation is a personal decision to put your trust(faith) in the man(and son of god) Jesus Christ, church can give you some knowledge to make it an informed decision, but most often it is a friend or family member to lead us to that decsision.

To quote a musical group that I like "He's got one excuse to hold you, never let you go again". The excuse is the decision I mention above, sort of works like a "death in the family" or a "severe mental illness" excuse in getting out of a test, 'cept you can control it.

Bagpuss: I am going home from uni next week, so I'll find that book and get back to you about the 'origins of the fallen'

In an interesting and related point. as I progress through my degree towards my dissertation (yes, STILL Sartre) I have begun to do some preliminary research into his Ethics (that's what I want to reseach) and I came across an intriguing passage - alas I don't have it in front of me but paraphrasing:

For sartre the subjective dominates our life. We exist before our essence. We are - put simply - whatever we choose how we want to be, there are no outside or objective determinates on our nature. I'll not run through philosophy here, but, This makes ethics a problem (no moral judgement of content) What for Sartre appears to be the ethcial life is to choose from the world around you what your attitudes are, how you act and what beliefs you hold and to do this TRUTHFULLY and the CONSISTENTLY.

I was more of an existentialist than i had previously realised!
In other words if as I mentioned in an earlier post, I were to for example, turn up to a church tomorrow with all the doubts and speculations I still have but saying I am now committed to believing in God, I would not be doing it truthfully. Similarly, If I was Atheistic, same problem, I'm not athestic so merely deciding that is my essence is not a truthful choice. I do kind of feel that the kind of half-way house situation I've reached is certainly truthful to how I feel now and where I am at in my Theological ramble. It has now become somewhat of a mire. The problem for me now is seeing how to move beyond mudded agnosticism to something else given the conclusions I have reached.
I agree with ddombrow, it IS a personal decision (probably none more personal than this). Like Amy said, Baby-food faith. How can I put my trust in something that I am so critically unsure about but fundementally feel it is a direction I ought to be heading in. Just not yet.

Funnily enough, in the hall in which I am staying whilst at Uni we have exchange students come over to stay. Recently we had a troup of three Americans come over. All of them are religious (erm..I think Lutherian, Presperterian (Sp?) and Mormon - NOTE: Don't ask Mormons to go the pub. ) and we have occasionally lightly trodden similar ground like this forum (post pub. approx 3am) and the general sentiment that came out of those discussions was

Me: "Just not yet.."
Them: "it's good that you've gotten this far - most people don't bother - but don't leave it too late."

So my next question is:

Can I leave it too late?

Clive

OK, I'll bear that in mind about Mormons.

I think I mainly agree with your American friends there, except I wouldn't say exactly that (I'd definitely not say "gotten"). Incidentally, do the other two get on with the Mormon? I've always thought Mormonism was a bit weird.

As for being too late, I don't think it could be in terms of "you're too old to be a Christian", but they're probably worried that if you leave and end up in a comfortable job, etc, these musings may be pushed to the back of your mind. Also, I remember someone talking at a Christian event saying that he'd nearly become a Christian at about 17, but didn't, but did later at about 28 and he said he wishes he'd done so earlier. Sort of like the old joke:

"Why don't you stop smoking, you know how damaging it is?"
"Oh, it's too late for me."
"It's never too late."
"Well there's no rush then is there?"

I'm not sure if that's helpful or merely rambling.

rambling I suppose, but good points, nonetheless.

Another quote that I remember, from Keith Green: "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonalds makes you a french fry."

P.S. Question for discussion: is there a too late for becoming a Christian? (like at death)

"gotten" Poor english on my part and I was paraphrasing. How about "it's good that you have thought about this..." instead?

I took a look at the link on the guide entry we're attached to (the one about "choosing two ways to live".) Interesting. Certainly the bits about rebellion especially the passive kind) And yet it allways hinges on clauses like "When you believe in God" etc. I don't know quite how I feel and as I wrote earlier - what I feel certainly doesn't seem to me to be belief nor atheism so how does one move from doubt/confusion to trust and then to belief? (Without faking it.)

Good question. This is where people start talking about a "leap of faith" and all that, though in my case it was more of a vague shuffle of faith, which after a few years covers the same distance as a leap. (note, I may be stretching the metaphor) Frankly, I don't really know, it's probably different depending on who you are.

Generally "too late" is considered death... at least, that's what I'd consider too late. And given the fact that no one knows what'll happen to them on the morrow, even this very second could be considered too late. Sobering, ain't it?

Richard, m'dear... my only question is what, exactly, is the whole reason you find it hard to move from an agnostic position to either side of the fence? You may have answered that before and I never read it... but it'd interest me, especially with your philosophic background, to see what your big wall is.

On the doubt issue... I think even the greatest of believers has had their doubts. I have more than I'd like to admit to, and more and more the more firm a believer I become. My favorite apostle, Peter, was pretty bad at the whole not doubting thing... he was an absolute mess, and yet he was in Christ's inner circle of disciples. Doubts and reservations are normal and generally common in living, breathing humans who think for themsevles. And when they are overcome, they only can make you stronger. (cliche alert... eeeeew!)

I don't know what else to say right now... hopefully you'll give me something to play off of.