h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>Ofcourse starbirth would say there is no such thing. After all he has no problem with the 3 to 4 thousand non participants that american forces could help killing in afghanistan. <

It would truely take a monster to have 'no problem' with the loss of 1 innocent life never mind thousands. For all our disagreements I do not think that of you. If you however believe that of me than you are ay fault for even attempting a dialog with such a creature.

For fans of the recent unpleasantness in Afghanistan, I just read a story that al-Qaeda camps have been reopening in eastern Afghanistan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2585539.stm

Are you ready for round two? Let's do it just like last time. Order Hamid Karzai and the interim government of Afghanistan to turn over all terrorists operating in Afghanistan. Issue demands, set deadline, turn off diplomacy, ignore protests or attempts at negotiation, invade as necessary. We must also take down any groups which continue to harbor and support this regime, such as the United Nations, US and coalition of whoever wants to tag along.

How did these al-Qaeda camps reopen? Can't Karzai keep things under control? Is the country too large for a weakened government to monitor and police all of it?

If you have quick answers for those questions, think about how your answers might have applied to the Taliban a year ago. Did the Taliban have that much control over all the country? Did they *allow* the development of al-Qaeda, or could they possibly have stopped it?

The excuse for regime change in Afghanistan was that they allowed terrorist camps to flourish. How is the situation different right now? Will regime change in Iraq prove as meaningless as the one in Afghanistan did?

>The excuse for regime change in Afghanistan was that they allowed terrorist camps to flourish. How is the situation different right now? Will regime change in Iraq prove as meaningless as the one in Afghanistan did? <

terrorist camps are not operating under the protection of the goverment - People are not being beaten jailed or even killed for minor religous offences - women are not regarded as possesions and are allowed to be educated - The goverment is not running around destroing historical sites that they don't think fits their religion.Those are a few changes. Are these what you call meaningless?

"The excuse for regime change in Afghanistan was that they allowed terrorist camps to flourish. How is the situation different right now? Will regime change in Iraq prove as meaningless as the one in Afghanistan did?"

You surely know perfectly well that the situation for the Afghans has improved enormously following Western intervention. I find it hard to believe that you regard the Afghans as anything other than a handy statistic for your anti-interventionalism. You oppose the intervention because you "care" about the Afghans killed in the bombing? Do you care about the many thousands killed by the Taliban and the civil war? Do you care that thousands and thousands more would have died if there had been no intervention? Do you care that the Taliban oppressed and murdered it's subjects in the name of what is rightly described as Islamic Fascism? Are you even willing to consider that the Afghan's are better off now or that a democratic Afghanistan is still a possibility despite the problems the current government has (that you would realise are not easy to deal with if you understand the political situation over there).

Is it any wonder, with this sort of confused "morality" that the words of those who think like you are routinely ignored by governments across the Western world.

For the record, I was opposed to action in Afghanistan at first. Then I saw the people listening to the radio for the first time in years, the smiling faces of women who had removed their burkas. I remembered that I thought freedom was something worth fighting for and I had to admit that not only had I been wrong but I hadn't been true to my own values.

"Zagreb, I can't *believe* you said that. Blackhawk Down is pure jingoistic propaganda of the worst sort!"

Have you actually seen it? Can you please tell me *why* it is jingoistic? I don't even remember a single "America is great!" line in the entire film. The worst it did was simplify the civil-war situation at the start. The film was actually about a battle, not how great America is.

"Frogbit was *not* defending the imperial partition of Iraq/Kuwait at all! He was saying the opposite - that Kuwait was part of Iraq, before it was split off, and so that explains Saddam's invasion!"

So Imperialism and the annexation of a soverign country is OK if that soverign country was once part of an earlier state? That's nonsense. Under that logic Britain could legally annex Ireland and you'd have to say it's not imperialism.

Kuwait was a soverign country, Iraq invaded and annexed it. That is imperialism, regardless of what existed in the past.

"It would truely take a monster to have 'no problem' with the loss of 1 innocent life never mind thousands. For all our disagreements I do not think that of you. If you however believe that of me than you are ay fault for even attempting a dialog with such a creature."

Oh hell. You've done nothing but defend that action. Last time I mentioned it you accused me of not caring about the victims of the wtc attacks. So with "I do not think that of you." you manage to speak mor rubbish.

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"terrorist camps are not operating under the protection of the goverment" Where's the proof they were government protected to begin with? Oh that's right, Bush's 'we can't tell you'.

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"You surely know perfectly well that the situation for the Afghans has improved enormously following Western intervention."

Would it be a waste of time to ask for more reference than *your* memory of something from TV?

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"Have you actually seen it? Can you please tell me *why* it is jingoistic?" - There's a guide entry, look for it.

"Would it be a waste of time to ask for more reference than *your* memory of something from TV?"

Believe it or not, when you see grinning Afghans doing things they weren't able to do before on TV it's BECAUSE IT'S REALLY HAPPENING.

I'm sick of being demanded "proof". Prove to me that the Afghans were happier and freer under the Taliban, would you?

""Have you actually seen it? Can you please tell me *why* it is jingoistic?" - There's a guide entry, look for it."

That'd be "Black Hawk Down - An American Fable". I read it, it was basically nit-picking that the film didn't tell the entire complicated story of the Somali situation (despite the fact that the film was about a battle *not* the Somali situation). I wonder if people are so willing to condemn "Battleship Potempkin" as jingoistic for not telling the full facts of the Russian Revolution in mind-numbing detail or whether people can respect both films for being about a particular situation rather than the whole story.

I wrote my own mini-review of Black Hawk Down stating my perspective on the film. I think there's a link at the bottom of the article you mentioned.

"Believe it or not, when you see grinning Afghans doing things they weren't able to do before on TV it's BECAUSE IT'S REALLY HAPPENING.

I'm sick of being demanded "proof". Prove to me that the Afghans were happier and freer under the Taliban, would you?"

hmm could it be because *you have never provided a scrap* I've never seen those pictures, neither has anyone I know.

"Prove to me that the Afghans were happier and freer under the Taliban, would you?" - Now that's just sloppy. I've never tried making that claim. That plus your yelling makes your argument and deflection look really weak.

How many families are left behind from 3 to 4 thousand civilians dead? Do you think they're smiling? War is a show, it's not nessary.

"How many families are left behind from 3 to 4 thousand civilians dead? Do you think they're smiling? War is a show, it's not nessary."

Like I said, many many more dead without intervention. If we hadn't done anything, the civil war and the Taliban's fascist rule would have continued, with all the victims of both. But hey, at least America would have stayed out and that's *much* more important, obviously.

"War is a show, it's not necessary" is cheesy student-politics that doesn't make sense. Do you have any idea how much wars cost a State? Do you genuinely believe no war has ever been fought for a reason?

"hmm could it be because *you have never provided a scrap* I've never seen those pictures, neither has anyone I know."

I saw the pictures and read the reports in The Guardian (British left-leaning broadsheet newspaper) so I assume they weren't American actors pretending to be Afghans on an Arizona desert set. You could always accuse me of lying, I suppose.

Neither of you can really know what the 'truth' is with this situation. Anything you hear second-hand from the news is going to have some sort of bias or propaganda. Really, you're not arguing about the situation in Afghanistan, you're just arguing about each other's interpretation of the newspapers and TV news.

Unless you're actually there, experiencing it and having some sort of reasonably in-depth social interaction with the people being affected by the situation, it is impossible to speak with any sort of authority on the situation. These 'facts' are not facts in the usual sense of the word.

bloody hell, you're obsessed.

"Do you genuinely believe no war has ever been fought for a reason?" - Putting words in my mouth

"But hey, at least America would have stayed out and that's *much* more important, obviously."
Obviously assigning ideas to me

" is cheesy student-politics that doesn't make sense." - Laughable, what makes you think you're in a position to make that statement?

"so I assume they weren't American actors pretending to be Afghans on an Arizona desert set." - More of your obsession.

Again you are acting like there is war or nothing. Or maybe all those bombs were needed to subdue the mighty and fearsome afghan armed forces. Do you have an ounce of common sense?

It seems that if you had a decent argument you wouldn't need to resort to what I've quoted above.

Thanks for your kind words about my play birth, I may well see what I can do..
A Guy called George Monbiot wrote a really useful review of that movie in the Grauniad, sorry I don't have the link - maybe Blues or Neugen Amoeba does..

>>Then I saw the people listening to the radio for the first time in years, the smiling faces of women who had removed their burkas. I remembered that I thought freedom was something worth fighting for and I had to admit that not only had I been wrong but I hadn't been true to my own values.<<
Och, it brings tears to my eyes, Zagreb... I too saw these things on the TV news. (You forgot the men at the barbers' getting a shave for the first time in years...)
Surely you remember someone (Blues or Neugen) posting a link a few months back, about how the women are back in Islamic dress, darker and
more encompassing than ever before? Opium production (stopped by the Taliban) is back up to pre-Dubya heights (to the delight of the CIA if not the DEA).
You're a very naive lad in some ways Zagreb. I don't think Dubya ordered an invasion of Afghanistan, to free the natives to listen to cassette tapes (not radio, BTW)After all, he didn't give a toss before 9/11, no American did. I don't think the estimated 3500 civilian casualties would be all that made up about dying for the rights of men to shave!

Starbirth:
"It would truely take a monster to have 'no problem' with the loss of 1 innocent life never mind thousands. For all our disagreements I do not think that of you. If you however believe that of me than you are ay fault for even attempting a dialog with such a creature."

Apparition:
*Oh hell. You've done nothing but defend that action. Last time I mentioned it you accused me of not caring about the victims of the wtc attacks. So with "I do not think that of you." you manage to speak mor rubbish.*

Starbirth
If you say me making the statement that I do not think of you as a monster 'rubbish' Than I guess I would have to go with your own assesment of your charactor.

Zagreb:
>You surely know perfectly well that the situation for the Afghans has improved enormously following Western intervention.<

Apparition:
>>Would it be a waste of time to ask for more reference than *your* memory of something from TV?<<

Starbirth:
>>> Why is it apparition when I have asked you where you got your facts in the past you responded to me you learned it in school,read it or saw it on the news. But when Zagreb says the same thing you berate him? I to saw the same thing on various news reports {not just american news but canadian and bbc} women telling storys of being beaten for walking down the street alone, having to give up life work and be submitted to virtual house arrest,men being put in jail for not praying at right time,familys terrorized for watching tv. The list goes on and on with the terror the taliban commited on the people. Not to mention destroying historical sites.

starbirth, the war on Afghanistan was not begun for some of the reasons you list. Many of those reasons were ways that war mongers justified themselves, after years of ignoring the problem in Afghanistan, while ignoring similar or the same problems elsewhere.

"terrorist camps are not operating under the protection of the goverment"

I'm not convinced that Al-Qaeda was operating under the protection of the Taliban.

"People are not being beaten jailed or even killed for minor religous offences - women are not regarded as possesions and are allowed to be educated - The goverment is not running around destroing historical sites that they don't think fits their religion.Those are a few changes. Are these what you call meaningless?"

Destruction of historical sites is not worth starting a war, but please don't act like this war was launched due to the destruction of historical sites, or for helping women, or maintaining religious freedom. There are other countries where these things continue, and no one cares. Maybe if we decide to launch wars there, then people will throw around these claims after the fact too, as if they were ever really concerned about the people.