A Conversation for The Bible - a Perspective

A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 1

Martin Harper

Since this entry has come into criticism from christians, might I suggest they return the favour by giving a critique on one of Nietzches books, or perhaps some of Kant's work? A hostile review of Origin of Species would work too... smiley - smiley ("It's pretty dull, and it glosses over a lot of the tricky bits. It has been argued that it's the product of the devil, designed to lure the religious to their doom.")

Criticism: I don't think that "yhwh" is the name of god. I think it's "Yahweh". Other contenders include "God", "Lord", "I am that I am", "Allah", etc, etc. There's at least enough uncertainty that the cut and dried statement in the entry is unwarranted.

Oh, and I'd like to kick off the "deadly serious bits of the bible", with the statement made by Jesus that "No-one can get into heaven, except through me". I'm sure y'all can do better than that...


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 2

James Casey

The reasons some Christians have objected is because the book is holy to them. I wasn't aware Nietzche or E. Kant were regarded as sacred texts by anyone. I'd suggest philosophy students were better qualified to comment on philosophy, and Xians to comment on Xian theology.

Evolution is actually accepted by about as many Christians as non-Christians, btw! smiley - smiley


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 3

Martin Harper

and, carrying on your theme, Scientologists are the best people to comment on Scientologist theology? Wrong! smiley - smiley

In any case, by your own analogy, theology students would be better qualified to comment on Xian theology, not run of the mill Xians. And most of those people seem to have highly skewed religious beliefs, generally a long way away from any dominant religion.

I thought the objection was because their beliefs were being ridiculed, not dues to the inherent holiness of the book - at least, that's how it was phrased. *shrugs*

(as many xtians as non-xtians? aren't most of the xtians in the so-called "developed" world, compared with other religions? that's not a statistic I'd want to brag about, myself... smiley - winkeye)


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 4

James Casey

Now listen, you cheeky little dice. smiley - smiley

I seem to be repeating myself, so I'll try and make some sense once more. When I was talking re. the Torah and Koran, I wasn't saying Jews/Muslims shouldn't be mentioned. Of course they must be. But surely the Bible is more Xian than anything else - at the very least since it was the Xian Church who compiled it?

Yeah, the point about who should comment on what was badly made. I actually meant Xians are more likely to *object* to stuff written about the Bible than to stuff written about, say, Nietzche. Anyway - where did theology students come into it? We were only mentioning Xians at first, then you brought in the philosophers!

It's been a bit since I sort of started this whole thing off, and I must admit that my views have changed; partly through re-reading, partly through comments from other, like yourself - for which many thanks! smiley - smiley

I now have only two real complaints...the first that the language used could have been much less anti-Xian in tone at times, and secondly that it seemed to spend a bit too much time criticising the text. I've no problem with someone ridiculing my beliefs...I just think it's unnecessary to do so in an approved Guide article.

And that...is that?


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 5

Blatherskite the Mugwump - Bandwidth Bandit

YHWH and Yahweh are the same thing... Hebrew as a written language lacks any vowels.

There is no name for god, in fact he is more often referred to as just The Lord or The Nameless God than anything else. It was blasphemy to try to utter his name, and even the knowledge of his name would give man great power over him. Omnipotent, what? smiley - tongueout


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 6

Martin Harper

hmm - I thought I recalled sections containing demands to "go forth and spread my name". Probably misremembered or mistranslated...

(isn't the belief that knowing the true name of something gives you power over it rather widespread? I wonder where it came from...)


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 7

Anya

So one doesn't pronounce the name of the Eternal. . .only one person pronounced it ever, according to Jewish lore, and that was the High Priest, who would enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem once a year (on the day of atonement, Yom Kippur) and utter the Name. Now, of course, the Temple is lost, and no one utters the name.

In Ansky's play The Dybbuk, there is an interesting monologue given by a Hasidic rebbe. In part it reads:

Every place where a man raises his eyes to heaven is a Holy of Holies. Every man is a High Priest. And every word a man utters with sincerity is the Name.

Btw, the Jews canonized their version of the Bible long before the Christians. Though the Christian Old Testament has the same content, it is organized differently.

For a good, well-footnoted and lucid modern translation of the Tanach, that is, the Jewish Bible, try the 1985 Jewish Publication Society edition. For a good modern commentary on the Torah, Ellen Frankel's The Five Books of Miriam offers a refreshing feminist take on Biblical interpretation.


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 8

Anya

Oh, and I forgot: Jews don't proselytize.


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 9

Nihil

Ahem.

When you read the 'Old Testament' of the bible in English translation, whenever it says 'God', the Hebrew word is 'Elohim', which translates literally to 'Gods'. Whenever your Engligh version says 'The Lord', the Hebrew says 'YHWH'. The reason there are no vowels is that biblical Hebrew _never_ has vowels, we base the vowel sounds for transcription on the pronounciation. Of course, God's proper name should never be spoken in Judaism. Hence the more respectful use of 'The Lord'. Incidentally, the Christian approximation of 'YHWH' is 'Jehovah'.


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 10

Blatherskite the Mugwump - Bandwidth Bandit

I can't speak for the OT, but in the NT, Mark and Matthew have Jesus calling out to Eli or Eloi, depending on who you read, and translate this as "my god." Singular.


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 11

Bubbles the Wandering Thingite Theoretical Mind (I am Heaven.)

Your criticism is wrong. In the original language, which does not use consonants, the name of the Deity is Yhwh, the others are simply names given to Him by later religous people who were either afraid to speak the true name or wished to distinguish their religion/faith from others which already existed. On the other hand, the part before that is a very good point.


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 12

Researcher 218612

All names for the Great I am given in this convo are correct. The true name can not be spoken(pronounced) by man. YHWH is as close as ancient Hebrew could get. Without going into way too much detail, some are Hebrew, some are Latin, some are Greek. Most NT are Greek. Get a Strong's Corrdance for details.


The Name of God

Post 13

TRiG (Ireland) A dog, so bade in office

Actually, the idea that God's name shouldn't be pronounced develpoed quite late. The Lachish letters (some business correspondance) contain the name, suggesting that it was in common use at the time. It is also found on the Moabite stone, suggesting that it was known to the nations surrounding Israel, even if the Jews didn't prosletize.

Incidentally, some Jews take this idea even further now, and write /G-d/ instead of /God/.

See A3477909

TRiG.smiley - smiley


A Challenge! A criticism! and "deadly serious bits"!

Post 14

TRiG (Ireland) A dog, so bade in office

"There is no name for god, in fact he is more often referred to as just The Lord or The Nameless God than anything else. It was blasphemy to try to utter his name, and even the knowledge of his name would give man great power over him. Omnipotent, what?"

And that would be why his name appears almost 7000 times in the Bible, would it?

A3477909

TRiG.smiley - tongueoutsmiley - nahnah


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