h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

As long as there are children who need adoption I don't think couples should take the IVF path.

What do you think?

Not all people who want chidren can adopt, and a desperate infertile couple aren't always what adoptive children need.

Children in the Uk who are realised for adoption have been at end of a long series of attempts to keep them with their birth parents. They are grieving the loss of their birth parents, who they can mostly remember. Many of the children are available for adoption because of various medical problems, or behavioural problems. They often need skilled experienced parents who have looked after other children.

Many are from an ethnic background that is different from that adoptive parents can offer.

Speak to anyone in modern adoption the words 'love is enough' is a joke. What traumatised abused children need is skilled dedicated parenting. Much more than love. And yes cross cultural adoption does not work out well so their are good reasons why it should not be practiced.

Often one of the reasons things go wrong is that the adoptive parents are constantly comparing the adoptive child to the perfect birth child that they could not have. One of the most important things social workers look for is that the process of grieving after infertility is over.

Those are all very worthy points Dr Zen and I don't disagree with any of them, but perhaps Roymondo may not realise that some young girls have a drive or instinct, whatever you may like to call it, but a desperate 'need' to have children.

This 'need' is as strong as the desire to eat or drink - it is not just a fancy or a whim. Therefore when they reach the stage in their life when they could have a baby, and find that biology prevents them - there is no way that the majority could just intellectualise this problem and adopt instead.

I have watched close friends go through rounds of (self funded) IVF and other quite invasive therapies, to no avail. Infertility is a tragic situation for such women.

There you go. Ignorance shattered.

Roymondo, I don't think for a millisecond that you are an ignorant person. Quite the contrary

Having watched a friend dealing with the various sucker-punches that infertility deals, it's become apparent to me

(a) that it is a much nastier, bloodier and more physical experience than you'd ever expect (you can be miscarrying for weeks, for example) and
(b) that it's one of those things that you can only understand by experiencing, like being a gay teenager or - ironically enough - childbirth

In my mind, it is verging on the unethical to have children in the West in the 21st century, so my choices are guided by views which are beyond extreme. (For the record they are (a) not to adopt for the reasons Z gives and (b) not to seek infertility treatment for the reasons you give). But they are MY choices, and I regard the choices of others (parenthood, IVF, adoption, whatever) as equally valid. What's to say my opinion is better than theirs?

So, what I am saying really is that no-one can have have an informed opinion about infertility unless they have been in the mind- and body-f*** that is failure to conceive and / or recurrent miscarriage. I've not been in that space, so I leave opinions about infertility to those who have.

Ben

To me, I always think on an issue like IVF, to the same way as I do on, say, abortion; I don't really have a say in it, as I'm not female... Its a womans body and ultimately its her who has the say in what goes on with it, not me, not really any man...
It would be nice to think that couples are given a sufficient amount of information so they can make an informed choice as regards fertility treatment versus adoption, there certainly are a lot of children at any one time waiting for adoption..

<>

Yes, Dr Zen seems to have a habit of making good points.
She seems very wise.

We are getting very confusing, aren't we?

Dr Zen is the researcher formerly known as Z, and I am Mrs Zen, the researcher formerly known as a girl / broad called Ben.

Z and I got married in July, and Milla suggested we should amalgamate our names and be called "the Zens". It seemed a very good idea, so we did. I even considered changing my surname to Zen rather than the good Doctor's actual name, but he didn't want to do that.

But you are the second person today who's assumed we are the same person. I think I may change my tag for a while.

Cheers

Ben

Well, I was referring to the Zen formerly called Ben.

It's lazanby's fault.

eh?

Now, blame 2legs if you like - but I am innocent I know Ben from Zen

Not 2legs's?

Shall we carry on with more?

I raise you a btw.

Whose fault is all this simulposting?

It's that Lazanby fella!

Well if I meet him I'll let him know...