h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

FieldersFizzle:


JA

OK..I've been sitting and thinking about this thread, and while you have the right to think/post what you do, two things have to be said:

1. Would it not be more effective to, say, start a thread and make her aware of it, and make your complaints known there? I mean, if you feel strongly enough to deface character behind a person's back, why would this be such an odd thing to suggest?

2. Does this not encourage the entire community to feel nervous that there are similar threads about *them* hiding somewhere? *be's paranoid*

I really don't intend to tell you how to go about your posting, but this just seems to have too much potential to damage a *person*, and the community in general.

*hides*

I'm not quite sure how to react. I don't know how many other people have found this forum and are lurking here and reading, nor what their opinions are, but I've heard about this forum via word of mouth, and I'm hardly the most in-the-loop person as far as gossip goes; so I only have to conclude that it's at least likely that word of the fact that this forum exists has got around, especially if an italic is subscribed to it (for whatever the reason).

Since this is a 'forum', I'm going to present my voice for discussion. On the whole, I don't think that forums online are the best place for group discussion; the atmosphere isn't conducive to a particularly in depth debate - it's too easy to ignore what other people are saying, and the nuance of in-person dialectic is all lost. However, I'm slightly petulant at this point, and I reserve the right to at least voice dissent, not least since there has - as yet - been no dissent voiced. Perhaps that's because any other dissenting thinkers happen to take to heart a philosophy which I'm going to try to address in this post, but perhaps I'm more or less unique in what I think. Either way.. unity in diversity isn't a bad thing.

As a first issue, I'm not at all impressed that people on what is usually such an open site are taking the opportunity to make, frankly, offensive comments behind another researcher's back. I'm especially not impressed since more than one of you are h2g2 volounteers (and especially since I've talked to more than one of you in threads in which I've had no objection to anything you've said). This isn't to take an authoritative tone or tell you that what you're doing is wrong; when I say that I'm not impressed, I mean just that. The only impression I get from what you're doing is that it's contrary to anything which I'd consider myself to be doing, which is why I feel the need to write.

As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the few social graces which make online the excellent place which it is to converse (and this community in particular) that you pay certain sorts of respect to other members, one of which being that when your comments are held bare for everyone to see, you should in part make sure that they're not anything which - if found - would cause any consternation on the parts of others. I'm going to let this issue drop, because I don't want to launch on a (major) diatribe and I'm sure that if you are intelligent adults - which I'm sure you are - you'll understand what I'm getting at.

May I also point out quite how hypocritical this thread is. I quote: "she is verbally abusive"; since none of you have done anything other than encourage the others in being b*tchy behind another community member's back, I'm assuming that none of you object to statements such as "Why do I find myself grinning at that prospect?" and "Because you are cruel, unsympathetic, heartless and probably stupid and miss the point, too. Oh, and the music you comment on is crap, your beliefs are stupid, and... Oh... need I go on?". Without wanting to pinpoint people as objects of my (insignificant, admittedly) scorn, you all tacitly consent to your words being used as your tomb here, and what are comments like these other than partially abusive? Another objection made in this forum is of a "13-15 yr old temperament". I hardly see that some of the comments made in this thread are anything other than BELOW the level of maturity which many teenagers between these years whom I've met exhibit.

My final point is that I happen to find Saturnine to be a bright young lady. I'm not going to labour the point any more than I have to, because this post is already growing beyond a managable length - I don't, as I've said, want to diatribe, argue, or rant. (whoops). People post what they say for multiplicitous reasons, and it's naive to assume motives behind what people post that aren't implicit in their demeanour to a very great degree. Finally, one of the unifyingly lovely things about humans is the fact that they're quite so different; the 'unity in diversity' cliché again. If you find someone sufficiently different to yourself that you can't get along, don't whine. If they're not being totally abusive - and saturnine isn't totally abusive - then you shouldn't feel the need to make such a meal of not getting along. And making a meal of it in the manner of a support group is both tasteless and immature; you are all /adults/, as far as I'm aware, and this is not - to my mind - adult behaviour. What you're doing is offensive, potentially damaging, and totally inappropriate.

Some people aren't easy to get along with; deal with it. You do all have the rights to do as you wish, but you do all have to live with other people, and if you can't do this, there seems to be little point in participating in a community. At least as far as I'm concerned.

If I've misread any of you, I apologise.

- njan

This is my first post to the conversation, but I have been lurking for some time. I really think that this conversation did not begin as a complaint session behind anyones back. It may have morphed into such, but I don't believe that it began as such.

You both make very good points, and I suspect you will nip this thread on the stem. It is a little late to nip it in the bud.

I am not sure whether to defend the emotions behind some of the posts here, (which will involve referring to and reiterating some of the problems which people have experienced), or whether to leave well alone.

The best thing to say, probably, is that Saturnine is on line A LOT. She posts a great deal. She tends to dominate the threads she is in. None of this would matter that much if she simply adhered to h2g2 nettiquette better. She is rude, she is inconsistent, she is petulant, she appears to think that these things are charming. This could all be mitigated if she was also aware of the affect that she has on others, and if she showed any willingness to apologise, to change or to learn.

I personally found dealing with her so tedious that I have simply pulled out of the threads that she is in. On the occasions where she has landed in threads which I have to be involved in because they relate to the Rolling Meet, I have made it clear that - putting it simplistically - nice posts are welcome, and petulant posts are not.

This thread IS petulant, and bitchy and unfair. But just take a look at the sheer number of normally good tempered researchers she has p**sed off.

Now I have had spats with other people on this site, including a couple who are posting here, (Blues, and Kaz - are your ears burning yet?) But I DO think about what others have written, I do consider where they are coming from, I do apologise to people on site when I have offended them. And I have had handsome apologies from people here who have offended me. The difference is that we think about what we have done and said, and take steps to make amends and re-build bridges.

This thread is an example of reaping what you sow. It is nasty and bad-tempered and unfeeling and thoughtless. However it reflects back exactly those qualities in Saturnine that she sprinkles around the site so liberally.

Njan, you are correct. It is not right of us to have posted the things we have posted here, (and I knew when I hit the first 'post message' button on my first post in this thread that I would regret it), but - blimey - how much has our collective patience been tried in order for us to do so?

Hey ho.

a bitch (obviously) called Ben

I think she should be told. No one is arguing her intelligence or creativity. It is abusive mouth. And Yes she is NOT always that way or she would not still be here.This would have happened sooner. I did not jump to yikes her 10 times a week because she is young and trying her wings. She was warned by h2g2 before,said so herself to me one night.

She does come across like an angry younger person.
When she IS not angry, she seems much older.
I think it was causing a lot of tension throughout the site. Everyone here has had the experienced more than a dozen times I bet!Everyone has said to her whoa....over the line!

As I posted here directly AFTER saying STOP this is abusive Sat on the M J thread, and on the oyster thread the rest of my complaint after yet another rude comment. I was begining to get rude. I had to say it to her and did.

This is what I posted here:
It COULD be an intervention of sorts to do her some good in the long run. I am sure a number of folks would be willing to *listen* if she wanted to change. H2g2 could be a great support group for her. Sort of built in guardrails/training wheels for her.

Although we have all tried to steer her already,suggesting some acceptable emoting boundaries after being insulted or continually put off by her! So...... I won't be holding my breath.

I talked to her a few minutes ago. She started with: I am trying not to offend & she did not.

I hope she knows what does offend or listens when someone says they are hurt or insulted!

Exactly Ben The difference is that we think about what we have done and said, and take steps to make amends and re-build bridges.

Marv: Whilst I appreciate that things can seem far more badly intended than they have have been, and that the slighest iota of ambiguous language can cause either side of a dispute to have their claim aggravated, I find it very hard to wrap my mind around the fact that a thread whose second post included comments like "t's not worth $.02) after each post, so there's no avoiding her. I'll just have to tune her out and read "baaaah" sheep wherever she posts....Here's hoping an Ignore function arrives with the next version of H2G2..." can have been intended benignly. Sorry..


I hope that the thread will be pruned; I really don't want anyone to be damaged, insulted, or offended unduly by this, and I've only just become aware of quite how much of a problem what one person says evidently is for some people, which may entirely be down to be, but may not be.

I agree, saturnine is online a lot; however, were it not to be for the fact that I spend most of my time online talking to a certain individual to whom I'm engaged, I have no doubt that I'd spend more time than I already do, and whilst I don't post a lot, I do lurk a lot; I'm online for most of the day. On the other hand, I agree that saturnine isn't the easiest person to get along with; what I'm saying, here, is I can see why you say what you sat. It would be an unfortunate breakdown in communication if I didn't, but I think that it's an unfortunate breakdown in communication which causes the subsequent problems which seem to arise. Maybe saturnine, in order to interact with you guys, does need to change how she behaves. On the other hand, if you changed how you behaved, you would be able to interact with saturnine. Notice the creative use of 'need' and 'would' here. It's all a relative field of play.

Ultimately, I can't say who's in the right and who's in the wrong. All that I say is that I don't think that any of you have acted particularly reasonably, but I do get on with saturnine. I have no doubt that there's something true or valid in some way behind what you say; as I've said, I can see why you're motivated, approximately, to write what you have.

On the other hand, as you've agreed, the thread is not at all nice, and I don't think that it's appropriate that people post in this manner. People need to make concessions to each other in order to live; I'd love to have been able to have told the family at whose house I just spend three hours at that I'd rather have left an hour into being there because I'm tired and can't maintain conversation, but I stuck it out for the purposes of being nice; similarly, they - being very nice people - put up with things that they'd probably rather not from me. Whether we acknowledge it or not, life is about give and take, whether it's willing or unwilling, conscious or subconscious.

When you're resolving a problem, the very LAST thing you want to do is cause more problems, but being so hypocritical in this way only makes everything worse. It's a very patronising thing to have to effectively say to a roomful of adults, but two wrongs don't make a right, whatever - for you - a wrong and a right is.

If you want social concord, then you can't combat discord with discord; it doesn't work. Admittedly, we can't all be embracingly lovely, but if you have a problem with saturnine then TALK to her about it. And if that doesn't work, you may have reasonable grounds to complain. I haven't been free from spats online myself; I feel slightly guilty about the way in which I've treated one or two people, and slightly more guilty about the way in which I've treated others, but I don't think I've ever been quite so unthinkingly nasty as this thread appears to be; I'd like to think I made a reasonable effort at conflict resolution.

If you can take steps to make amends and re-build bridges, great! ignore everything detrimental and do that, and I'll be happier than I am, should my happiness mean anything to you. Don't take this as a personal affront, any of you, please. I'm sure you're all lovely. .. perhaps people sometimes forget things that toddlers are taught on a daily basis. I maintain that foreign policy would far better be described as 'toddler politics', so you're in good company if you are making these mistakes.

Please, just be nice, everyone. .. please?



- njan

I confess to having a dirty great sense of deja vu about this whole thing.

Having sat through two witch-hunts relating to people on this site already I am actually quite glad that Njan has called a halt on this one.

Let's just hope that everyone here has let off enough steam for us all to resume our normal equinamity.

Ben
*who feels rather ashamed of herself*
*who wonders if this could be the first thread in h2g2 history to have EVERY SINGLE POST yikesed*
*who is quite tempted to try just that as a social-experiment with the moderators*
*who won't do it, though*

It's hard to tolerate those who are intolerant, and hard to respect those who are disrespectful.

njan, I think you've taking this thread a little too seriously. It started off with a good humoured comment, and I think it has stayed that way. In my eyes this thread is a bit of a lark, a therapeutic lark.

This thread morphed into a forum where tolerant and polite researchers can let off some steam about someone who has been rude to them on more than one occasion. Note that this thread is NOT going on in Saturnine's face. The majority of this thread is tongue-in-cheek, and often said in good humour. I made a joke earlier about it being a support group, and funnily enough, that's what it became, totally unintentionally when fellow researchers kept on popping up to throw thier two cents in.

This was never a deliberate attempt to abuse another researcher, and I still don't think it is. If it has turned into anything genuinly ill-willed (which I don't think it has), or appears to be, then that is more a reflection of the topic in hand: Saturnine's behaviour.

It's good to get some opposing views anyway.

Mina, what do you make of all this, from an italic point of view?

Ste

Ste - normally, I think what you have to say is lovely, but isn't it a little naive to think that just because this thread isn't 'saturnine's face' that it is therefore benign? If anything, it would just exacerbate the negative effects on her if(when) she does find it.

(And Ste, you can't *really* expect us to believe you are entirely ic, when you've said, in effect, that you can't wait for her to turn up to see what her reaction is, can you? )

I was just making the point that people here would never say this stuff to her face, they wouldn't want to. But given an opportunity to let off steam without her knowing they jump at it. I'm not sure Sat would hold back like we would. I know it isn't totally benign, but the intention is.

Ste

I really don't want her to find this. I was writing in evil mode, joking about, not being serious, as the majority of this thread is.

'Benign'? Or 'Not Malign'?

B

*rolls eyes and points to the 'public' address up in the box*

benign, as in not malignant

I'm sorry, I have to agree with nyssabird. I don't feel that anything like this can be seen as good-humoured.

njan, Nyssabird, you have both made your points. Abbi Normal, Ste and I have responded, with varying degrees of compunction, but compunction none-the-less, to the very good points that you have made.

There are a number of things which could happen now. This thread could develop into something as nasty brutish and long as the Lifetime Suspension thread, with people becoming even more entrenched, and backed into reinforcing positions that they don't actually feel in their heart of hearts are defencible.

Or this thread can die a natural death very soon now that everyone, including both of you, have said their pieces, vented off steam, and calmed down.

But there is a real risk that if the both of you carry on pointing out how nasty we have all been that instead of letting the situation calm down, it will continue to escalate as people get defensive and sulky. You won't get full-on aplogies from everyone, and there are too many people here for anyone to get in the last word, no matter how much any of us might like to.

It is nearly midnight here in the UK. I am not going to unsubscribe, (this is way too important for that), but I do hope there is not much more of this for me to read in the morning.

Can I suggest that you both give us a cooling off period, and see what comes out of the woodwork tomorrow?

Ben

Well, that depends on where you're coming from. If you've been on the recieving end of abuse yourself then yeah, it's funny. If you look at it from Sat's POV then no, it isn't.

Polite, well-behaved, good-natured researchers came here to let off steam of their own free will. Many of them. Any mean streak in this thread is a reaction to Saturnine's aggressive and abusive behaviour. If you are Saturnine, this stuff would not make for easy reading, but I really have to be honest and say I have little sympathy for her anymore after being patronised, called a tw*t a couple of times, and rendering the best website out there unuseable.

Have we made the '5 Busiest Conversations' yet?

Ste