h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Now then Ste.... be nice

(oops, the "teenage boys" part was honestly not in reference to anyone in this forum. it was a comment on all animals' obsession with sex, not because of a desire to procrate, but a desire to engage in the most pleasurable activity there is.)

>i dissagree animals hump to procreate they hump the same sex because they think it is the oppisite sex. it's not homosexuality, it's stupidity.

That's not the case. Mostly, it demonstrates domination. Think about that the next time a dogtries to hump your leg. I believe there are also exapmles of masturbation in lower animals such as monkeys.

(i personally witnessed orangutang masturbation at san diego zoo last weekend )

Alright, I'm taking the bait and being as totally honest as you, caleb16, obviously are.

I'm not going to lightly step around you caleb16, you do not deserve to be treated in the way you have been by kinder people than me on this website.

I disagree with you on the subject of homosexuality. I do not in any way respect you, you offend me and you *disgust* me. Have you any idea how much damage you inflict upon the already tortured souls of gay people all over the world? Never mind the gay community in the enlightened centre of learning Oklahoma obviously is.

Do you not see that people might not want to be gay because of the torment that you and your other homophobic bigots bring upon them?

You are not a christian, you bring shame to others who consider themsleves also christian. What would Jesus Christ have to say about you? Think about it. He was a champion of the underdog; the poor *and the opressed*, if Jesus were alive today he would be campaigning for tolerance, love and mutual respect between all. You, however, meter out judgement and hate towards a group of people whose worse crime is to love another person of the same sex. If christians are right about judgement day you and your ilk better find a bloody good hiding place.

To whoever said it: Gay people do not just come from "broken households" or "non-nuclear families". To say so is pure ignorance. I know a person who condsiders themselves bisexual who was a child of a catholic priest and a nun! I have a good friend from a stable family who recently came out to her mother. Her mother replied with "you do realise you are going to hell don't you?" to *her own daughter*! Where is the christian love there?

"you brought it opon yourself when chose the lifestyle that you chose. you should have known that this lifestyle will bring you ridicule". You must be stupid I think, plain and simple. Is that supposed to be an arguement against homosexuality? That you shouldn't be gay because basically people like you will ridicule them? Unbelievable. I really can't believe someone would write that.

You are an homophibic bigot and do not deserve to be a part of such a wonderful and supportive (online) community. You can only do harm here and I think h2g2 would benefit greatly if you left.

Sincerely,

Ste

I don't think we can sit here and judge whether or not Caleb is a christian. He sounds like a lot of christians that I've heard.

I think Caleb is 16 and is still figuring out what he believes and how feels about things. Shutting him out of the community won't do him any good. I thought this was meant to be a place where diversity was valued. Or is it only when their views are somewhat close to your own.

I think it's about time this place had a little diversity. We could use some honest to god christian conservatives (I'm sort of a libertarians) and I think Caleb could stand to have his horizons broadened. I think that's why he's here. I can't tell you how many messages I've read from left wing Europeans complaining about narrow minded Americans who have a limited worldview. Yet when an American shows up whose interested in particpating, you shut him out because he's different.

Great attitude.

Ste's right, apart from the fact that the community would be better off without people like Caleb. It wouldn't; it'd just get boring if everyone thought alike. Better to have the bigots here and destroy their arguments through debate, methinks.

"We could use some honest to God christian conservatives" - You might; I've got got no use for them at all

"I can't tell you how many messages I've read from left wing Europeans complaining about narrow minded Americans who have a limited worldview" - No smoke without fire!

Josh,

I would like to follow on from Rocket Mans comments:

<>
As a homosexual since I came out I have very few emotional problems, in fact less than most of my heterosexual friends. Whilst I was "in the closet" I had the emotional problem of trying to be something I was not.

<> where does this piece of unsubstantiated pop gossip come from? If you are going to quote statistics like this please provide the source. By the way I am 41 and was given a clean bill of health at my last medical.

<> You are of course entitled to your opinion, however I adore women, my best friends are women, I just do not find them sexually attractive.

As an old style international socialist and being an atheist I would agree with your comments regarding helping people to overcome their problems and respecting their freedom to chose their own lifes; however your preceeding comments do seem to contradict this.

Finally, I will protect with my life your right to express your views no matter how obnoxious, offensive, cranky, inflamatory or otherwise they may be and to live your life as you see fit.

Josh,

I would like to follow on from Rocket Mans comments:

<>
As a homosexual since I came out I have very few emotional problems, in fact less than most of my heterosexual friends. Whilst I was "in the closet" I had the emotional problem of trying to be something I was not.

<> where does this piece of unsubstantiated pop gossip come from? If you are going to quote statistics like this please provide the source. By the way I am 41 and was given a clean bill of health at my last medical.

<> You are of course entitled to your opinion, however I adore women, my best friends are women, I just do not find them sexually attractive.

As an old style international socialist and being an atheist I would agree with your comments regarding helping people to overcome their problems and respecting their freedom to chose their own lifes; however your preceeding comments do seem to contradict this.

Finally, I will protect with my life your right to express your views no matter how obnoxious, offensive, cranky, inflamatory or otherwise they may be and to live your life as you see fit.

A not-so-wise man once wrote something that applies to my previous comments: "i admit that i used some somewhat overberring and offencive language but i shall not aoplogize for offending you. you brought it opon yourself when chose the lifestyle that you chose. you should have known that this lifestyle will bring you ridicule."

How come homophobia is tolerated? If someone were to make similarly bigoted comments about race the whole place would be up in arms. Whilst I appreciate both two-bits and Geoffs more sympathetic take on caleb16 I personally find it difficult to tolerate intolerance.

It may seem a bit harsh to suggest he leaves, but that is my opinion. We are having a reasoned debate and that is one scenario that could result from this debate is it not?

"I thought this was meant to be a place where diversity was valued." I'll start a campaign for a Klu Klux Klan h2g2 fan club right away shall I? It's not that certain views are "closed to my own", those views under discussion marginalise and potentially damage other people on this site *which would reduce h2g2s diversity*. It's then I feel the need to counter them. It's no use pussyfooting around saying "well I value your opinion, but...", people like this need telling how it is. I hope I am providing that service. Not all liberals are wooly.

Two-bit, you would make a damn fine drinking partner .

Oh and Josh: "The average homosexual lives 39 years". That is a joke, surely. Can you quote this source?

Ste

"I thought this was meant to be a place where diversity was valued." I'll start a campaign for a Klu Klux Klan h2g2 fan club right away shall I?

I don't care. I think the KKK are bunch of idiots that get far more press than they're worth. I don't say that because I disagree with their views, but from what I've seen of their actions and writings. The KKK is kind of dull except for their extreme stupidity. I recall one guy from South Carolina who started a KKK branch (I should point out that there is no one KKK they're all competing KKK organizations) whose father was Jewish. I'd kind of like to see some christian identity people here.

I might be defending Caleb if he were expressing racist views. I've had some very interesting online conversations with christian identiy believers and other people from the extreme right wing. I kind of miss them from the days of the electronic bulletin boards. Some of their political views are and legal justifications are fascinating.

There's more than one KKK? . I wonder how they compete?: "But we have a *90* foot burning cross with *8* n****rs hanging from it and embroidered white pointy hoods, what does *your* KKK have?, ner-ner." I mean, how stupid can you get?



I freely admit that the conversations that can be had with extreme right-wingers are fascinating entertaining, but it doesn't mean that all opinions regarding their behaviour should not be expressed. Mine was one of those. I am actually a little bit glad other people piped up to say that he should not leave h2g2, as I feel it could have turned into a bit of a witch-hunt.

Ste

Just noticed that Caleb's space has been modded. What did it say that broke the house rules?

Gosh, I've been missing out. On picking a chosing my way through the Bible- I don't. But I read the whole Bible. I don't go looking for snipids of bigotry. You accuse me of spurning Leviticus, but this is not so. In Acts 15, we observe the following delima:

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, 'The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses'" [the law of Moses includes Leviticus] "The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: 'Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the Gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers could bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are...."

After this, several others speak up and they coucil decides that, since humans are incapable of obeying the law of Moses, Christians should not be burdened with trying to obey it. They send out a decree to the Christians: "...You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

Therefore, we do not have to sacrifice sheep or refrain from wearing clothes with more than one cloth, but we still have a code of ethics. This is why your incessant pointing at Levitucus as proof of the Bible's ridiculousness and inconsistency is wrong.

Welcome Ross. I hope you read my initial post in this conversation. It shows that I do not hate you, but I am commanded by the scriptures to love you with the love of Christ. You say you're emotionally fit and healthy, and I would be foolish to disagree with you, since I obviously do not know. I give you the benefit of the doubt. You should realize that being gay will not keep you from being a Christian any more that, say, greed or gluttony would. The Bible's invitation is to "whosoever will". However, if you were to become a Christian, but maintained your attitude and lifestyle without even attempting to change, you would be basically saying, "God, forgive me of my sins. I really enjoy sinning." The Christian who maintains the love of any other sin is no different. Nothing is keeping you from being a Christian, but to be a Christian who is useful to God, you would have to be willing to make some sacrifices.

*apparent wind* vs *true wind* (in case any of you sail) - sometimes you have to be in the middle of something to understand it. Things may seem clearer from a distance, but this very rarely makes them so.


Jesi

Josh,

OK, let's assume that Leviticus' rules have been set aside by Peter's statement in Acts. I find it a little glib to assume that one paragraph can so easily write off all those rules, but I'm prepared to concede the point (in this discussion, at least). Moving on then...

1) If the Leviticus rules no longer count, why are they in the Canon of Scripture for Christians? How can the Word of God be consistent when it gives orders such as "Do X, do Y, Don't do Z", and then later says "Actually, you don't have to bother with all that."?

2) If the Leviticus rules can be set aside because of Peter's instructions, where is the definition of "sexual immorality"?

3) Are Paul's exhortations for women to be silent and keep their heads covered still valid? If not, on what grounds has this been set aside, and why can't those grounds apply equally to homosexuality? Going to extremes, does everyone called Timothy have to take a little wine for their stomachs? If not, why not? It's stated in the New Testament, so surely it's an instruction to Christians.

4) I hope you can agree that I am not being flippant or provocative. I just want to demonstrate that even within the confines of a Biblical perspective there is room for doubt about intepreting Scripture's instructions. And if such doubts exist, surely homosexuals deserve its benefit. I have already mentioned the times in the Church's history when it has been very, very wrong with the best intentions. Past is prologue.


Geoff

Oh, and Ste, wouldn't I make a "damn fine drinking partner"? I can pay for my own beers and everything. Honest. Please like me.

The point is Josh that I do not wish to be a christian, I have my own moral and ethical code that is based on sound humanist values.

I treat all people as I would wish to be treated - i.e. with dignity and respect for who and what they are.
This is something that you, Caleb16 and the majority of evangelical or fundamentalist christians patently fail to do. You make offensive and insulting comments and then try to justify them by dressing them up in scriptural references, claiming them to be the words of God and seem to think that this makes it acceptable.

By your moral and ethical code it might be, by mine IT IS NOT.

I am all for empassioned, intelligent and informed debate - after all that is the lifeblood of the h2g2 forums - where both protagonists show respect for each other.
This doesn't mean I have to agree with you, it does however mean that I can hope to change your views or opinions through the power of my argument and the way that I conduct myself.

I hope this makes my position clear and I wish you a long, happy and fulfilling life.

Geoff, I just presumed I would be the one buying, but seeing as you can get your own you would indeed make a damn fine drinking partner. We'll do rounds yeah>

Having just read the backlog on this hot potato, I'd like to air my own opinions.

I'm still waiting for any response from Josh or caleb16 on Two-Bit's assertion that homosexuality is observed among animals. I'd like to add that it's not only present, but widespread, together with transgenderism, transvestitism, masturbation and recreational sex. Some sources state that only humans, dolphins and Bunobos monkeys engage in recreational sex, but a more in-depth study found that there are literally thousands of species, from hyenas to insects display these behaviours. These behaviours are not just demonstrated in unusual circumstances, but are normal sexual behaviours. I don't have the reference to hand, but I will find it out if asked. Any argument that states that homosexuality is unnatural is hogwash.

I cannot conceive of any coherent (in the statistical sense) thought that can embrace the literal truth of the bible. Trying to find an over-arching 'truth' that cannot be changed is scuppered by mis-translation, mis-transcription and mis-interpretation. What's more, there's not really anything in the Apocrypha that is any less valid than the accepted canon, rather that the testament is a subset of the available texts that has been deliberatly chosen to be fairly consistent by Christian scholars with their own political axes to grind. I know from my own history studies that during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries Catholic doctrine was changed, conveniently at a time when the church was on the wane and needed to re-establish control over its followers.

What made you think that Ross would want to be a Christian? I wouldn't. Ross and I have both formed our own morality from our personal experiences, beliefs and intellect. I believe mine to be dramatically superior to any other I have encountered; that's why I follow it. I may try to persuade people to see things my way through informed argument, but I do not condemn them if they do not. I will however, defend any person or group who comes under attack if my morality supports them.

Homosexuals are just as able and likely to live happy, long and fulfilling lives as heterosexuals, and anything you have read to the contrary is lies. There is evidence that many homosexuals make no choice as to their sexuality, rather that it is simply the way they are like hair colour or height. If you like someone less only because they are gay, you are homophobic by definition. If you generalise in a derogatory way about homosexuals you are homophobic. I can appreciate it if in your environment there is a lack of positive images of homosexuals, but if you have access to the internet you really should know better by now.

As a side note, if a Christian condemned a homosexual in my hearing, or tried to bring them back into the closet of the Lord, I would give them the verbal lashing of their lifetime.