h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

ok...this is what my little mind understands so far (it was so confusing I had to call for the use of those most old-fashioned of instruments, the pen and paper!) *tries to read her incredibly illegible holiday-time-scrawl and ponders how to convert it to normally read print*

FIR BOLLIG or FIR BOLG:
A story from Irish prehistory/mythology, supposedly about the inhabitants of Ireland before the Celtic invaders. They were apparantly short, heavy-set, with fat stomachs.
Questions:
Is this an ancient recollection of Homo Sapiens replacing Neanderthal in Ireland?
Were these possibly Neanderthals?
They sound a little like like Leprachauns - any possible connection?

TUATHA DE DANAAN:
Described as the tall, noble, fairy-like people.
Questions:
Are these stories told about the invading Celts?
If so, by whom?

NEANDERTHAL:
The Neanderthals were European Apes. They appeared about 200,000 years ago, and died out about 10,000 years ago. Apparently they had red hair!<<considered typically Irish . They seem to have been physically adapted to a cold climate, a theory supported by there being no remains found south of a certain line.
Questions:
Possibly Fir Bolg inspiration, as the Neanderthal may have grown smaller due to lack of resources after ice-age (10,000 years ago)?
Were they the inspiration for trolls?
Statement:
Unlikely to have been Fir Bolg inspiration (darn, I like that word too much!) as the colonisation of Ireland is supposed to be 8,000 years ago, two thousand years after the supposed extinction of Neanderthal. Maybe some very old ones...?

GENERAL QUESTIONS AND STATEMENTS:
Who were the "pre-celtic inhabitants of Ireland"? Neanderthals or is there a society between the apes and the people?
Were the Celts the first Homo Sapiens to go to island? Because, if there was another invasive force, perhaps they handed down their legend to the Celts?
What are Megalithic societies? (I seem to recall learning this at some stage...something about building with stone?
Who were the Milesians?
jwf said that the last remains of Neanderthal were found in French and Spanish caves, and thought to be about 30,000 years old. This doesn't tally with them dying out 10,000 years ago - perhaps these are the last *European* traces of them?

Of course, the whole theory is nicely dashed against a horribly rocky wall when woodpigeon says "there are no Neanderthal remains in Ireland"...party pooper!

GP

Just had to get post 42!
And also to say that when I wrote all that I understood...I was leaving out that stuff about pink elephants!

The pink elephants being, of course, a genetic offshoot of the not quite so woolly Imperial Mammoth, prone to bouts of alcoholism, and mostly just prone.

It doesn't seem wise to base a connection between the Neanderthal and the Fir Bolg on a general description. When Scandinavian raiders hit the Orcades, they gave the same general description on their long-established inhabitants - which also breaks down into that short&dark/tall&fair division.

Also I don't think you should classify neandertals as apes, they're humans I'd say. But should they have died out only 10.000 years ago? Shouldn't we then almost have written records of them?

Yeah, and also my dad said something about Neanderthal actually being a very different species - less closely related to us than modern apes. But what about the leprachaun connection - not likely? *pet theory torn to shread*

GP

If you want leprechaun you should look up something about Pedro the mummy. A guy they found in New Mexico. Fully grown man, exepct for the fact that he was only about 30 centimeters.

I don't think neandertals should be farther away from us that apes, where does he have that info from?

** Quietly munches the damp snacks in the hall after everyone in the party has left throwing insults at him on the way out **

The Tuatha De Dannan and the Fir Bolg are part of Celtic mythology, which include a lot of fairly fantastic accounts of great warriors and demons, and islands where nobody ever aged, and the usual troop of gods, curses and battles, etc. None of it, unfortunately, bears much resemblance to archeological discoveries, and the Celts did not have much in the way of a written history. It was all folklore, first written down by monks of the middle ages.

Mythology, just like many historical accounts, often tries to portray history from the point of view of the society giving the accounts. Often truth is distorted to make the society look good, and to justify traditions or viewpoints that the society has adopted. The desription of "Fir Bolg" in this respect may just have been a way of demonising the pre-Celtic people the Celts displaced.

However, there are a few facts. First of all, the Celts only arrived in Ireland about 2,500 years ago (possibly even later than this). There were native peoples in Ireland at that time, who were displaced by the Celts. These pre-Celtic peoples were normal human people. Some of these native people had fairly sophisticated cultures as evidenced by the impressive passage tombs of Newgrange, Knowth and Dowth. There are also thousands of other monuments in Ireland which are pre-Celtic.

There is no connection whatsoever between Neanderthals and pre-Celtic Irish. They lived in completely different times. Additionally, Red hair is not typically Irish. Black hair is. Red hair is typically Norse.

I also remember hearing that there is evidence of Neanderthals living in the Middle East, so they must have been adapted to warm climates too.


Woodpigeon

Back to yer Mammoths. Stephen Baxter has a novel (cunningly called Mammoth) about Mammoths surviving to the present day in Siberia.
On peoples, I thought the pre-Celts were supposed to be short. i.e. Picts are always described as short and dark in relation to everyone else.
I believe the pre-Celts of Ireland were supposed to be very worldy wise, I did hear a tale of the skull of a Barbary Ape being found at Newgrange (or somewhere similar). Also, the Stone of Destiny (Scots coronation stone which came from Ireland) is supposed to have originally come from Palestine, via Egypt.

Isn't that the one they also claim was used as a plug for a septic tank?

The story is that when the English "acquired" the stone they actually got a septic tank lid, the real one being hidden. But as no one will show me the real one, I'm not convinced.

The general 'battle' that has raged this past century among anthropologists and archeologists on the 'worthiness' of Neanderthals and Homo-Sapiens is, at its roots, the worst kind of racial (special?) prejudice.

It's part and partial of the various blacks-versus-whites, apes versus men, and tall-blue-eyed-blondes versus short-hairy-darkmen arguments that have been at the heart of Darwin versus the Fundamentalists, the claims of Aryan superiority and the ongoing struggle of 'coloured' folk everywhere.

The supposed recent DNA 'proof' that all people, everywhere, who are living today, can trace their roots to Africa 150,000 years ago appears to successfully decide that Neanderthals, who lived in EU from 250,000 intil 30,000 ago were a separate and lesser species, perhaps as different as gorillas from chimps. An offshoot that died off.

In spite of its apparently liberal attitude that allows that all men today, of all races, have a common ancestor, it still reinforces the stereotype of the short, dark, hairy apemen being lesser than tall fair coloured men. Anyone with 'neanderthal' features is diminished as unworthy, primitive and stupid. And the good looking blondes still get all the goodies. Again, our prejudices have made a lie of our history and we are still creating 'history' to justify our prejudice.

peace
jwf

Er........what's wrong with being sensational? Not everything in the universe that happens is boring and unpredictable.

Seriously, I can understand a university failing something for being *wrong*. But failing it because it's sensational is just.....well....silly.