h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

...and to think that the bovine flatulence controversy began with an observation that when catttle are mooing, they often go right on contentedly chewing their cud as they do so...

...some people apparently haven't the capacity for recogizing facetiosness when confronted with it...

...unfortunately, there are people who really haven't got the capacity and respond literally when anyone playing with a full deck would have a sense that there are things which simply are mot supposed to be done....

"If they were Germans, or Italians... would citizens accept so much callousness toward them?"

I wonder if Islamophobia isn't partly to do with an "uncanny valley" effect. I mean, obviously huge numbers of Muslims flooding into the country and swamping local services is never going to be popular. But I wonder if it's the nature of their difference (and, crucially, similarity) that might be contributing to the problem.

There are cultures - civilised ones - that are close enough to British that we don't look at them with suspicion or fear. Poles, for instance, mostly white, mostly Catholic, mostly people pretty much like us. Some cultural difference, sure, but overall it's pretty slight. To a country used to semi-skimmed milk, they're skimmed, or full fat milk - different, but not unpalatably so. And obviously they don't blow shit up.

There are cultures - civilised ones - that are so far different from British culture that their differences are interesting. They don't remind us of ourselves in any way. The Chinese, for example, mostly not white, but not black or brown exactly either, mostly... what? Buddhist? Ancestor worship? They don't make enough of it that anyone cares, over here at least, and so different from us in customs and behaviour that they don't set off the alarm bells. To a country used to semi-skimmed milk, they're fresh orange juice - just a qualitatively different but not unpalatable thing. And obviously they don't blow shit up.

And then there's Muslims. They're quite a lot like British culture... from about 700 years ago. They're pious and loud about their religion (like we used to be), and that makes them institutionally massively homophobic, misogynistic, and against many of the values we in Britain pride ourselves on (e.g. free speech). And if any individual self-described Muslim isn't like that, it's only because they're cherry-picking bits of their religion to ignore - something that's much rarer in Islam than Christianity, because the Muslim world hasn't had the Englightenment yet. They're worshipping the same god that used to be the centre of our culture, just WAY more fervently than makes any sense to most people in 2016. In a country used to semi-skimmed milk, they're milk alright, but milk that's been left on the window sill for a fortnight so it comes out of the carton in lumps. And obviously, from time to time, some of them blow shit up.

In summary, I think it may be Muslims similarities to us (or at least us from when we used to be barbarians) that may be as much to do with our fear and suspicion of them as their differences are.

The Ottoman Empire was the last big continental empire to disband, leaving the constituent parts on their own. England, France, Spain, and Italy were part of a big empire until about 1500 years ago, but they've managed to get used to being in charge of their own affairs, allowing for odd wrinkles [Holy Roman Empire, i.e.] from time to time. Even when France was part of an empire, it still had Frenchness. The Muslim nations that were part of the Ottoman Empire are still grasping for something to fill the vacuum. There may still be people who remember the old days.

Thanks, ITIWBS for not carrying with facetious nature.

I probably forgot to consider the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which blinked out around the time the Ottomans [Ottomen?] did. The history of nationalities seems pretty complicated. I'm not blaming 2Legs for this, at least not so far .

It depends, sometimes, on neighborhood or district.

Some places in the USA, people from the other side of the next ridge-line, or the next barrio, two blocks away, are considered foreigners.

Of course, some places in the mideast the same obtains.




I'm reminded of a favorite photographic study of an armed Afghan and an armed American hillbilly.

The two were identical in appearance, except for costume and complexion, could have been identical twins reared separately, the difference in complexion due to the Afghan living in a high-altitude desert, constantly exposed to the sun, while the hillbilly lived in a forested environment where he was usually in the shade.

Both, probably, were fundamentalists, if different kinds, and both were probably phenomenally accurate with their rifles.

“And then there's Muslims. They're quite a lot like British culture... from about 700 years ago. They're pious and loud about their religion (like we used to be), and that makes them institutionally massively homophobic, misogynistic, and against many of the values we in Britain pride ourselves on (e.g. free speech).”


700 years ago , Islamic culture had reached a level of knowledge that would set up Renaissance in Europe. ( Read about the Translator school of Toledo, to start with). Science in Islam is considered essential and a way of knowing God.

Recently , during the Arab Springs, young people, educated most of them, were shouting freedom and equality. Those grassroots movements were wiped out in Tunissia, Egipt, Turkey, Syria...

Some of the most interested in doing that were that bunch of lunatics wrongly named Islamic terrorists. Those nuts have a kind of religious sect cooked by their delirant point of view ( nothing to do with Islamic culture or Koran) and mixed with plenty of drugs, sex abuse, slavery,looting (of petrol and items from museums, later sold in the black market) killings...
They have received, directly and indirectly support from who prefer dictatorships like Arabia Saudí to social democratic governments that would put at stake their business in the area. That´s not new. History tells lots of examples like those.
Read Persepolis, a graphic novel, to start with.

If religion were to be blamed for mysoginist, homophobes,or criminal actions, then what happens with all those men who commit crimes of domestic violence? There are also white men, educated or not , british, french or german. What about homophobes in Britain or any other place? They can be from left, right, white, brown, educated or not... What about those who are bombing the shit out in Syria? Those corporations (western)who are making loads of money selling weapons?
What about the thousands of muslims in the world that try to live peacefully?
It´s simply ridiculous and lazy to blame religion for that. I´ve told you the meaning of jihad, from that teacher,specialist on semitic religions, on Middle Age History, internationally acknowledged... no, she´s not a nut, she´s a great professional to be trusted. Dolors Bramon is her name.


I´d love to know which are those British values you mention. Do UKIP or Tories share them? They claim to be real British, and people keep on voting them...


There are two paths people can take on times like these ones: we can blame inmigrants, the “other”, or we can blame those politicians who are looting our countries, and the countries of many refugees too.

Many of those Syrians are middle class citizens. They are educated and they could be an asset of youth and knowledge to this decrepit Europe. However, people are afraid of them without knowing more than what politicians and media say. In Austria, Germany and other european countries the far-right is rising. That´s come from the islamophobia fed to people for so much time, and islamophobia increases with ignorance, you know?

Those are really, really good points, Maria.

As I've mentioned before, Nuslims in America are less likely to endorse violence than any other group. The minister for the church in my home town told me that he had invited local Muslims to ecumenical gatherings, but they feared for their safety so they didn't come.

That makes me sad.

I remember a fresh-faced, friendly young man who came into the library where I worked, bringing books about Islam. We promptly cataloged them and put them on our shelves. People need to understand other groups in the world in order to be well-informed citizens.

"700 years ago , Islamic culture had reached a level of knowledge that would set up Renaissance in Europe"

Exactly. That was the last time they were anywhere close. Thanks for understanding my point and restating it for me.

"Science in Islam is considered essential and a way of knowing God"

If you can't see why that sentence doesn't make sense, I'm pretty sure I can't help you.

"Those grassroots movements were wiped out "

It takes a country to wipe out a grassroots movement. Which again was my point, thanks - the educated and potentially civilised are a tiny minority who can't get reform off the ground.

"that bunch of lunatics wrongly named Islamic terrorists"

They are accurately named Islamic terrorists. You keep on trying that "no true Scotsman" bullshit, but it won't wash. Those people *are* Muslims, hewing closer to the true lessons of their "holy" book than most of the so-called moderates. And more of the moderates than we're happy to admit tacitly support them.

I'll skip over the incoherent whatabooutery that comes next.

"I´ve told you the meaning of jihad"

And I've demonstrated that you can't even get the story straight within a single sentence.

"from that teacher,specialist on semitic religions, on Middle Age History, internationally acknowledged"

Argument from authority fallacy.

"no, she´s not a nut, "

Straw man fallacy - I never said she was a nut. I just said she was disingenuous and demonstrably factually wrong.

"she´s a great professional to be trusted"

Argument from authority fallacy.

"I´d love to know which are those British values you mention"

I gave one example. Look up the rest yourself. I'm not here to do your homework for you.

"They claim to be real British, and people keep on voting them"

Interesting one, that - "they claim to be real British". Your use of the word "claim" suggests you are sceptical of their claim. And yet, IN THE SAME SENTENCE, you note that the actual British people keep on voting for them. So the British people themselves, when consulted, seem to agree that yes, the Tories and UKIP do, in fact, represent us and are "real British". Just how up yourself do you, a foreigner who doesn't even live here, have to be to *presume* to tell US what's British? It's not like there's a book you can look in that definitively explains what it is to be British... y'know, like there is for Muslims.

"this decrepit Europe"

If you think Europe is decrepit, you REALLY need to get out more. I'd rather live here than anywhere else. Most of this world is a disgusting hole.

"islamophobia increases with ignorance"

This is the diametric opposite of the truth. In 1986 I knew almost nothing about Muslims, certainly not enough to distinguish them in my mind from, say, Hindus and Sikhs. In my ignorance, I had no fear of them. Then I watched some Muslims burning books in the street and throwing bricks at policemen, and I started to learn more about "the religion of peace". And the more I learned about Muslims, the more I feared them. If you want people to fear Muslims, teach them about Islam, about what the Koran actually instructs them to do and in what terms. Ignorance is all that's holding Islamophobia back.

"What about the thousands of muslims in the world that try to live peacefully?"

Hundreds of millions, rather. Well over a billion, in fact.




"In summary, I think it may be Muslims similarities to us (or at least us from when we used to be barbarians) that may be as much to do with our fear and suspicion of them as their differences are."

You consider British culture of the 13th century to be barbaric, do you? Seems like a harsh assessment to me. Makes me wonder just how pampered your life has been up to this point...



"And obviously, from time to time, some of them blow shit up."

Just like, from time to time, some Christians blow shit up too. Best you keep that in mind.

Religion is a *tool* for violent extremism, not the *cause* of violent of extremism. Irrational violence is inherent to human nature throughout all time and all cultures. Failing to understand that only makes you more susceptible to it.

And while we're on the subject, I'd like to point out that religion is just as often (if not more often) also a tool for peace, tolerance, understanding, and spiritual enlightenment as it is for terrorism.




>>Science in Islam is considered essential and a way of knowing God<<

"If you can't see why that sentence doesn't make sense, I'm pretty sure I can't help you."


It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be a tenet of their religion. Which it is. Maria's argument still stands.




"Those people *are* Muslims, hewing closer to the true lessons of their "holy" book than most of the so-called moderates. And more of the moderates than we're happy to admit tacitly support them."

Have you *read* this book of theirs? I don't get the impression that you have. And the more you paint this as a black and white, us or them fight, the more moderates you're going to push to the *enemy's* cause.

I don't know about you, but I'd like to avoid that, so what do you say you knock it off?




>>I´ve told you the meaning of jihad<<

"And I've demonstrated that you can't even get the story straight within a single sentence."

I don't think you've demonstratably proven that at all. And I'm much more inclined to take the word of an Arabic historian on the subject than I am to listen an obvious xenophobe.



>>no, she´s not a nut,<<

"Straw man fallacy - I never said she was a nut. I just said she was disingenuous and demonstrably factually wrong."

Demonstrate it then. Go on.



>>I´d love to know which are those British values you mention<<

"I gave one example. Look up the rest yourself. I'm not here to do your homework for you."


Values are subjective. What I would consider American values aren't necessarily what my neighbor would consider American values.

And you know this. Maria is, by asking you directly, trying to do her "homework". You are, by deliberately insulting her simple question, encouraging an environment of schoolyard namecalling.

If you want to argue, argue properly. This is beneath you.




>>this decrepit Europe<<

"If you think Europe is decrepit, you REALLY need to get out more. I'd rather live here than anywhere else. Most of this world is a disgusting hole."

I would argue that YOU need to get out more. Certainly Europe is a nice place, don't get me wrong, but so is THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE WORLD!

Sounds to me more like your own mind is a "disgusting hole". It's no wonder you have such an ill-tempered disposition.

"You consider British culture of the 13th century to be barbaric, do you? "

Hell yeah. I certainly wouldn't want to live there. Would you?

"It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to be a tenet of their religion. Which it is. Maria's argument still stands"

Bollocks. The argument is self-contradictory. And as I said - if it isn't blindingly obvious why, then you're probably incapable of understanding. Since you've demonstrated that you don't understand, I don't see any profit in responding in detail to the rest of your witterings.

Apart from: "Have you *read* this book of theirs?".
Yes. I don't need to ask if you have. I suggest you stop engaging in this kind of argument until after you have, because asking questions like that just makes you look silly.

" you note that the actual British people keep on voting for them. So the British people themselves, when consulted, seem to agree that yes, the Tories and UKIP do, in fact, represent us and are 'real British'." [Hoovooloo]

They do now, at any rate. At various times in the past, the voters have voted for candidates of other philosophies. There is no one true way of being British -- or any other nationality. There are many ways. But thanks for the reality check, and for pointing out the logical fallacies.

I really have to ask - - - How old are you, Hoo?

The way that you must parse every paragraph and then sentence as well, it would take you decades to get through any third of the Qu'ran.

The universe has many mysteries....

>>You consider British culture of the 13th century to be barbaric, do you?<<

"Hell yeah. I certainly wouldn't want to live there. Would you?"


Wouldn't mind that much, long as I were English. It's the 18th century I'd avoid.

Hope you've got perfect teeth then.

Or be on Thomas Aquinas's good side, as his theology seems to have made the witch trials possible in later centuries when the Reformation was stirring people up. and heresy was a big issue.....

To answer the question directly, the UK is not Islamophobic, very far from it. It consistently rates amongst the most Islam-friendly places to live in Europe. This is despite repeated provocations by Islamists attacking and murdering again and again. This hasn't led to a rise in the Far Right (as was predicted on this site a few years ago), in fact the Far Right has virtually ceased to exist. The closest thing to a Far Right party we have is UKIP - a Little Englander joke protest party that does well in EU elections under PR but comes nowhere in General Elections.

Muslims in Britain are more likely to be murdered by Muslims than anyone else - which is the story the world over.

The only people who claim the UK is Islamophobic are Islamists, shit-stirring prick politicians like George Galloway and his fellow travellers on the Left who will embrace Islamic Extremism (in all of it's homophobic, misogynistic deeply conservative glory) as a stick to prod the Right.

Are there any people who are phobic abut pretty much everything? Should we count them in this discussion?

"Dr" Lucy van Pelt had the word for that ...