h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

What I don't get is gender pronouns for inanimate objects. It makes learning a foreign language that much more difficult if you don't know whether the coffee is masculine or feminine.*

Deb

*I'm well aware that I'm lucky English is my first language so I don't have to learn it as a foreign languge student!

"Seriously - if your society, and your life, is already so comfortable and equal that you have the luxury of sitting around and complaining about what pronouns people use, and that is EVER the best use you think you can make of your time to make the world a better place - you've already won. 99.9% of the population of the world have it much, much worse than this, and if you don't want to do anything to improve their situation, that's your right, obviously. But don't, please, try to push on me or anyone else the idea that pronouns matter."

Well... as ever.... yes and no. It's impossible not to agree that - set against the totality of human suffering - the way people use pronouns probably doesn't amount to much in comparison. Problem is, this kind of argument can be used to attempt to shut down pretty much any cause that ISN'T one of the main drivers of misery and suffering. I find myself tempted into a very similar line of reasoning about many animal charities.

But I think this is to misunderstand activism (by which I mean the desire to bring about change) through using only a single point of comparison - that of suffering. But there are others that might affect what we turn out attention to, such as our ability to make a difference/solve the problem; the amount of effort required to overcome opposition; personal significance; degree of obligation felt etc. It's also possible to focus on a variety of activisms and projects at a time.

Personally I think experiments with gender free pronouns were interesting, but I'm not aware that it's a live issue any more (note the date on the guide entry). I'd say that what probably won out in the end wasn't gender neutral pronouns, but greater thought about how gendered pronouns are used to avoid stereotyping and exclusion.

As an undergraduate, one of my lecturers always used "she" when talking about hypothetical people/representatives of particular intellectual positions. I thought this was quite striking, and not being a fan of writing "he/she" or "(s)he" constantly, I adopted it in part by alternating gendered pronouns, but avoiding stereotyping. It can actually make for a more elegant way of writing, because I can use "he" and "she" as a shorthand for different hypothetical proponents of particular views/example people.

It's not something that I "campaign" about, but by using language in that particular way, people notice, and sometimes (as I did) they copy. So... it's not as important as world hunger, but it takes virtually no effort on my part, and sometimes people do notice and pick it up.

A German uni (Dresden?) has recently rewritten it's articles (or something to do with uni procedures and regulations) and since they have more female teaching staff than male also took the opportunity of making it female too. As you may know German separates everything by gender (making company speeches ugly and clumsy for eg, because you have to refer to Kollegen & Kolleginnen).

The reaction was rather interesting, if predictable, too.

I knew it was over there in the east somewhere. Leipzig.

http://www.dw.de/german-university-opts-for-gender-neutral-language/a-16865989

"this kind of argument can be used to attempt to shut down pretty much any cause that ISN'T one of the main drivers of misery and suffering"

And this is a bad thing because...?

Let's say you turn up to hospital accident and emergency. You've had an entertaining morning, having suffered a minor paper cut by the photocopier, which caused you to swear, which caused your psycho colleague to punch you in the face, breaking your nose and making you fall backwards over a plant pot, badly lacerating your arm and, on impact with the floor, shattering your collarbone.

Now... the attending paramedic can do a number of things to address what ails you, but I would suggest that if they even NOTICE the papercut, much less spend any actual time and effort addressing it, they really need retraining. I mean, sure, popping a plaster on it will, unarguably, make a tiny, tiny positive difference in terms of the objective amount of pain you're in. But frankly, if it was me, I think I'd actually be actively angry they weren't doing something about the gushing blood or my broken bones and were instead poncing around on something trivial.

People can make a difference, and there's a finite number of people and a finite amount of their time. It's a shame that so many people who want to make a difference choose to try to do so by doing things that, frankly, don't actually make that much difference. I guess it's just easier to bleat about pronouns than it is to actually DO something.

The example of animal charities is an excellent one. There are CHILDREN out there, *human* children, without enough to eat, without shelter, without parents, even in civilised countries. And yet there are adults who, knowing this, choose to pat themselves on the back for all the precious time and money they spend and all the wonderful work they do to make donkeys' lives better. Just thinking about this fact makes me slightly nauseous. We can't all cure cancer, or feed the hungry, or raise the orphans. But we could all help, a bit. And if you don't, fine. But don't tell me about your dog sanctuary, please.

It's a bad argument because it assumes a false choice. It's a fallacy of relative privation. It assumes that only so many issues can be addressed and therefore we should only address the most dire ones.

I hate this type of false argument. It's like when people say, "why should we spend money on a space program when people are starving here [on earth / in my country / in my city]?"

It's not an either or situation and in this case, a well funded space program can actually benefit the hungry through advancements in weather forecasting and land usage based on satellite technology.

In the case of gender issues, pronoun usage may not be of the highest priority or of any priority to you, for instance. But that doesn't mean it should be dismissed entirely, or that there shouldn't even be discussion of it.

I, personally am not overly concerned with gender pronouns. I find the article I linked to be interesting. I felt that others in this discussion my find likewise. Will society come to a screeching halt if someone addresses someone else by "he" instead of "she" or even "sie"? Of course not. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't merit discussion.

However, feel free to if the discussion offends you by its mere existence.

"I believe we should all be proud of our gender, and not hide in this closet of neutral pronouns. But why do I feel like a weirdo for even suggesting it here?"

Sorry this thread made you feel like that - I think your suggestion is good. That was the motivation behind this thread, really - not a general thing about removing gender, and nothing massively important either, but just being curious about how people assign/declare gender or not. I'd like to be proud of my gender, too, but instead I'm hiding in some sort of closet... I'm not "she", but don't feel entirely worthy of "he" cos I'm a feminine boy. "Zhe" is OK, but "he" is the pronoun I prefer... There, I said it

"For most of us once we have met people in RL our actual gender is clear."

True Not everyone genders me correctly in RL either, but on average it works out about right

There was a classic case of a man with a gender-ambiguous name who was never called for interview. Then he changed his CV to stick a "Mr" before his name, and got the next job he applied for. Yes, this actually *is* a big deal.

Clearly, it's not a big deal for you. This means that you're not really a good judge of how big a deal it is.

TRiG.

@Baron Grim:
"It assumes that only so many issues can be addressed and therefore we should only address the most dire ones"

It assumes populations and resources are finite. Are you arguing with this assumption?

but what do you suggest the people do who really loathe and detest children and think that starving children is just one of those things that nature does to control population - but would still like to help a charity? Dogs and cats might be a good one for them?

It happens in so many discussions, just because we're discussing A, doesn't mean we're not aware of (and/or also discussing and campaigning on behalf of) B, C, D...

>>"this kind of argument can be used to attempt to shut down pretty much any cause that ISN'T one of the main drivers of misery and suffering"

>And this is a bad thing because...?

Because of all the reasons I gave in post 22, and the reasons that Baron Grim gives in post 26. But perhaps you're mostly here for an argument....

The multiple injury analogy is not particularly helpful, as it assumes that all of the bad things are happening to me, or to one particular person. A paper cut does pale into insignificance if you also have other injuries, and against other people's more serious injuries, but if it's all that you have, it still hurts.

Let's imagine that I have a first aid kit, and that first aid kit has something that stops papercuts from hurting. I have in front of me a friend with a papercut. I can stop it from hurting. Do I: (a) do that very thing; (b) decide that it's very minor, ignore them, and instead go out into the streets with my first aid kit looking for someone more seriously injured (as both my time and my FAK) are finite; or (c) do I take it to the post office, get some stamps, and send it to Syria? As I said in post 22, there are other factors to consider than global seriousness.

Finally... does this mean the end of Hoo's objections to religion, creationism, quackery, etc and so on.... all first world problems in comparison to world hunger.....

>>>

@Baron Grim:
"It assumes that only so many issues can be addressed and therefore we should only address the most dire ones"

It assumes populations and resources are finite. Are you arguing with this assumption?

<<<


Well, at least you're obvious with your Straw Man Arguments.

But, I'll bite. Of course, I'm not. But how many resources do you think a discussion of gender issues requires? I bet no one will go hungry directly because we have a discussion on the internet. But that's not what you want. You just want to derail this discussion. And you're doing a fine job of it.

Often I enjoy reading your points of view, but this is starting to reek of obvious trolling. You're better than that.

Hey folks! I don't want to get caught in any crossfire here. I'm not a debater I'm afraid. I hope there's a way I can slink into Ask and offer a personal posting, because the subject of the debate interests me.

I was involved in gender issues all through the 80s, so interesting to see how internet culture reflects this. Some interesting postings here, in amongst the fray. Thankyou.

For what it's worth, I once asked a transgender friend of mine about the he or she question. I said I didn't want to insult, so could he/she please help me and put me at ease. He/she is a compliment! said my friend, and proud to be both, and also a third gender that merits its own description. Obviously, it's not ideal. Perhaps one day there will be a new language.

Being of a natural androgynous nature myself, when I joined hootoo some years ago, I didn't really register that my hootoo name didn't give away my gender. When friends of mine finally admitted that they thought I was a male poet from Arizona, it was kinda funny, and also a compliment, but one of them was really upset that they had assumed I was a guy.

Not at all! I declared. Don't be upset. I'm not playing a game here. It was up to me to tell you I was a lady. And now I tell my gender in my Personal Space. Proud to be a lady!!

I assume genders all the time, here online. Sorree. I do check peoples' Personal Spaces to see if they give away their gender. If not, I assume they have a reason. Perhaps one day there'll be a new language. I guess with have to go with 'they'.

Please, folks, no crossfire. I'm a middle aged lady, and I'll bash you on the head with my walking stick. haha.

Or ask for my posting to be deleted, if I get really upset and nervy.

Nice talking to you, Ask.

cc

"For what it's worth, I once asked a transgender friend of mine "

That is the best piece of advice for many situations.

Be brave. Ask. How do you wish to be referred to. It crosses over to other areas of life. Interacting with handicapped people. We are all frightened of doing the wrong thing and often this means that we do nothing at all.

Ask the person. Do you want me to lead you by the arm, help you up these steps, etc etc.

If you ask people want they want, they will usually tell you.

"Ask the person."

Indeed
(and as an addition to that in the case of a disabled person who looks like they need help, if the answer is "no, I don't need help", then that's fine, too)

Thanks for posting, cactuscafe

"Don't be upset. I'm not playing a game here. It was up to me to tell you"

How true - several times in RL I have known people to get upset and make quite a big issue of it when their perception of my gender changed, even though I actually considered it a compliment that they chose my preferred option first time...

"I assume genders all the time, here online. Sorree. I do check peoples' Personal Spaces to see if they give away their gender. If not, I assume they have a reason. Perhaps one day there'll be a new language. I guess with have to go with 'they'. "

I personally find using "they" awkward. It's just the grammar cop in me. I find subject/object-pronoun mismatch, like a plural pronoun for a singular subject, a bit jarring.

It's well below the reaction I have to "should of" or "irregardless" and such, but it still tweeks me.

That's why I like "hir" and "sie" but since no one else uses them, I usually try to find a way to reword statements to avoid pronouns when I can rather than use "they" or "their" and similar.

Thankyou folks for your responses to my posting, and for the ideas and thoughts!

Even though I'm not a debater, it was good to experiment with offering a personal posting here, and see what thoughts and ideas return. Like an interesting echo. With new sounds. Thankyou.

cc