h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hoovooloo, we're not disagreeing. As I continued, I was suggesting there were measures short of draconian gun bans that would have a positive effect. Specifically, I suggested that the discussions we're having in response to the recent incidents is helping to change our culture.

I didn't state as much, but I wasn't suggesting that no gun control measures be applied. I think the measure the President took unilaterally, such as demanding that a chairman be appointed to the B.A.T.F and that restrictions on the CDC barring research on gun violence were good steps. I personally think a restriction on certain weapons and magazines is a reasonable response and can be done so without infringing on 2nd amendment rights.

Specifically regarding "assault weapons", while I can understand how difficult it will be to establish specific definitions for them, I can see how they could be restricted in such a way that *reasonable* gun advocates could get on board with them. There is no reason that such weapons couldn't require a thorough licensing, training and B/G process to own and also require some JUSTIFICATION. I can't think of any legitimate justification for the typical homeowner for such weaponry but maybe there are some folks who do have legitimate reasons for needing them. If so, and they pass the requirements, so be it. And I have little doubt that people that would pass such requirements would not be the type of people that pose a threat such as we've been seeing.

I see there are a few more so I'll stop here.

blimey, the firetruck thing is appalling.

Here if you see an accident and you're first on the scene as far as I remember you're required to stop and see if you can give assistance (1st aid etc). I don't need to be compelled by law to do that, however (first rule of first aid: don't put yourself in danger)

We have volunteer fire brigades here in rural places. It's funded partly by tax and partly by donations. They are all part-time and do it out of a sense of civic duty (plus the opportunity to ride in the shiny red truck and drink beer with their mates every friday evening). It is partly fed (firefighters) by the youth fire brigade which is a sort of venture scouts type of arrangement.

The idea that they would watch a house burn is just... well, again I'm rendered speechless.

As I read stated so eloquently on twitter earlier today, "Only in America a gun is a god given right but free healthcare is a communist plot."

Ha Ha HA....ha ha ha ha ha...ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...ha...ha ha...h

I'm am not laughing at the burning down of this persons house...I am laughing at the perverse notion that America is 'The land of the Free' 'of the brave' of the place to try to attain 'the American dream'.

When in fact it's full of numbskulls who have the empathy of a gnat's penis.

Very much shown in the 'Obama' healthcare situation where republican's are telling government to get out of their lives, that the UK NHS is barbarous with its 'death committees' etc...when in fact its about the fairest system you could have...I don;t overly mind paying National Insurance when most of it is used on other people because I know that when I need a doctor or treatment for pretty much any ailment I'll get it without the worry of someone saying: show me the plastic.

This very situation shows that a lot of Americans lack empathy.

Further to that as a lot of Americans think that without God you would have no morals and hence kill whomever you want to then those people do not lack morals...but empathy to other human beings...because if you *have* to be told how to treat people morally...what the hell is going on in your brain that is stopping you treating people morally simply by just being human?

Anyway...this incident merely supports the notion that Americans will be quite happy that innocent people will get killed just so they can keep owning guns...and when those people happen to (ex)-policemen...boy...what a country...

I don't want to drag people off-topic, but since the discussion has veered over to the subject of our mutual social responsibility, permit me a couple of thoughts.

One is that I don't know where certain loudmouths in this country (US) get off asserting that taking responsibility for your neighbour was not a basic value in colonial North America. If those people hadn't taken care of each other, we wouldn't be here.

Anybody ever heard of barn-raising? Or the original bridal showers? Or 'pounding the preacher'? It was all about community helping. All the time. What do you think people did before there were hotels? They stopped at a stranger's house for shelter. Give me a break.

My mother's first response to a death in someone's family was to head for the kitchen. Somebody might need a casserole or pot of soup.

Her first response to 'someone is in hospital' was to get the room number, and head for the car.

My dad's response to 'Buddy, have you got a dime?' was to take the man to the nearest diner for lunch.

Of course that should be a natural part of being human. Totally agree.

To those who think they need to be told by the Bible - and shame, if you do - here's the verse:

'For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.' Deuteronomy 15:11

If you can't extrapolate from there to 'don't let your neighbour's house burn down, if you can help it', then heaven help us all.

A lot of folks in this country read Ayn Rand's juvenile, fairy tale ode to greed and selfishness and took it way too seriously.

BG, do you think it's because they think, 'That's how rich and famous people got to be rich and famous. Maybe I should be like that.' ??

Do we need to start publishing profiles of people like Andrew Carnegie, who gave away 90% of his money, and founded all those libraries? (Yeah, I know what else he did. Not saying he was a saint.)

Should that be our next Guide Entry project?

They do worship the rich, not necessarily the famous.

They speak of "Job Creators", with a capital J.C.

I think it's not a stretch to see that many leading conservatives and the those they worship are short on empathy.

I think the conservative argument that would be offered is that actions like a barn rating are done by people in the community of their own free will. They are not done by people who were compelled to work nor were they forced to provide money through the government. These people would argue that if people fall on hard times that the community and churches would assist them.

I don't share that view, as I don't really trust churches (I assume they have an agenda), but I can't deny that they do lend assistance.

Now in the early days of the United States, there was a good deal of compelled service to the government. Able bodied white men had to be part of the militia. Every hundred men would form a militia district that would form a governmental unit that would elect militia officers as well as civil officers like the justice of the peace. Later, men had to work for a certain portion of each year or month (I forget which) to work for government projects like roads and such.

>> The land of the brave <<

How can that be? I thought it was the land of the Braves, but then they were slaughtered and it became the land of the White European Colonists, who then shipped over native Africans to work the land once the Braves had been cleared?

I think we're finally getting to the crux of it.

On the one hand it seems clear to everyone that America really was raised as a team-effort (what the heck is pounding the preacher? is that even legal).

And that, like some bible bashers, the parts of history/constitution that point to gun ownership are preserved and revered and the parts (like all able bodied men being in the militia) are cast aside.

I still don't get how anyone can stand by and watch someone's house burn. I don't care who they are. The guy had a family, his kids are homeless and it's not their fault he forgot to pay he $75.

I presume with the fire service thing it all comes down to insurance and liability. If the fire fighters go in and try to save the home, and the home itself is not covered by insurance -- then presumably the firefighters won't be covered if they get injured trying to put out a fire at an uninsured home. Furthermore, if they are unable to attend a fire at a home that is insured because they are busy trying to put out a fire at a home that isn't insured ... then I am sure they will be taken to court and receive a humongous fine ... with people losing their job as well. The firefighters also might be shot and killed by the uninsured home owner who could be a mad man. So I reckon it all comes down to insurance, liability, and being ready to tackle fires at insured homes.

Aside:

Dmitri, re your post 787

There was a start made on Carnegie Libraries but it seems to have faded.
It's here: A87764610

There's a lot of it - probably too much and certainly too much if it was to be completed in the same vein.
The convo is: F19585?thread=8294658

(and no, I don't think I could)

Rod

/Aside

"These people would argue that if people fall on hard times that the community and churches would assist them"

Yeah. But they're missing out a step in that argument. First, they get to JUDGE them. Then, and only then, if they are, in the opinion of those conservatives, worthy of help, then they get help.

If there's something not right about them - maybe they're black, maybe they used drugs, maybe they're gay, maybe they're Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912 instead of Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 - well then they can just starve or have their house burn down and that's the Lord's will, right? Bod forbid there should be equal access to help for people they don't like...

Americans baffle me. Individually, the vast majority of them come across as some of the most pleasant, fun, generous people in the world. And then you hear about something like that house fire, and wonder what the hell they teach their kids.

I hate to be the one that Godwins this thread, but another thing occurred to me this morning. Read that story again, and check out the justification that was given for not fighting the fire.

"what moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly ACTING UNDER ORDERS) to watch this house burn to the ground " (my emphasis).

I wonder if, at any stage, when those firefighters were telling news reporters, the (former) homeowner, the police, or their own friends and family about why they didn't put out the fire, did they use the phrase "we were only following orders". And I wonder if any one of them has the education or knowledge of history to stop, just for a moment, and question what they're doing with their life.

>> The land of the brave <<

~*~How can that be? I thought it was the land of the Braves, but then they were slaughtered and it became the land of the White European Colonists, who then shipped over native Africans to work the land once the Braves had been cleared?~*~

And where did those colonists come from, Stone Aart? Europe you said, wasn't it? Why the whole continent must be overflowing with violent, selfish jerks in order to produce such vicious people. Can't be very educated either, or they surely would have known better than to believe that one race was inherently superior to another. I can't imagine why anyone would want to live in that crazy place. I am SO GLAD I live here in America, where everyone at least judges people on their own actions instead of the actions of their long-dead ancestors.

Now THERE's a thought, Mr X.

'I am SO GLAD I live here in America, where everyone at least judges people on their own actions instead of the actions of their long-dead ancestors.'

Sure, *everyone* does that. That's why people who talk German are repeatedly called 'Nazi' by Americans on the Internet. Not here on h2g2, but in games etc. And not necessarily only by teenagers. And that just for talking the 'wrong' language.
I'm sorry to say it but Americans are no better in that respect than the rest of us.


Almost all our firefighters here are volunteers. Two of the guys at my my office are part of their villages fire brigade. They talk about it at work quite often. They have a lot of training and it's all funded by taxes and donations. Usually the fire brigades have a few events every where where they collect money from people, like a ball or a summer party with food and drinks.

>> I am SO GLAD I live here in America <<

Which one ... South, Central, USA or Canada?

Oh don't start that again.

I am SO GLAD I don't live in The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, where people are inexplicably opposed to abbreviating America's name, but not The People's Republic of China's name.

"the whole continent must be overflowing with violent, selfish jerks in order to produce such vicious people"

Tense fail.

It *was* overflowing with those people. They overflowed. Now they're gone, somewhere where "we were following orders" doesn't stick in someone's throat as a justification for doing something obviously immoral.