h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yes, the point was, it's been about 20 years since John Major, at thhe time of Chamberlain it had been 20 years since the great cataclysm of WWI.

I find it hard to see how anyone would see that otherwise unless they were being deliberately contrary

Bet he complained about Clarkson.

What Orcus said. It was about distance in time.

With two clicks of Google I could have chosen the No 1s not the No 10s.

Whitney Houston - I Will Always Love You
Charles and Eddie - Would I Lie To You
Boyz II Men -End Of The Road
Tasmin Archer - Sleeping Satellite
The Shamen - Ebeneezer Goode
Snap - Rhythm Is A Dancer
Jimmy Nail - Aint No Doubt
Erasure - Abba Esque
KWS - Please Don't Go
Right Said Fred - Deeply Dippy
Shakespear's Sister - Stay
Wet Wet Wet - Goodnight Girl

Comparing Jimmy Nail to Hitler is about on a par with comparing the Major Government to WW1

Oh right. Sorry. Misunderstood.

Jimmy Nail? Jesus...

Aaaaand...now I'm trying to work out whether 'Nail' and 'Jesus' was an intentional juxtaposition.

Ain't no doubt about it...

Surely the Jimmy bit is crucial.

*Everyone* knows that Jesus did a pilgramage to Motherwell* during his lifetime.





*Might have been Kirkintilloch too - the gospels are unclear...

Or as we call it here...Kirkinteuch.

Am I missing something on this thread?

Is it seriously being suggested here that the very highest echelons of the British government didn't have a proper handle on the reality on the ground going on in Nazi Germany.

Apart from facts that had to be well known about the reality known about a major western European power. I mean we're not talking pre-telephone, pre-radio days.

I mean if you listen to some of those speeches Hitler was giving in the thirties..the sheer intensity of hate and vitriol..

And that dozy idiot thought you could do business with such a regime?

Well I find that incredible.

"Is it seriously being suggested here that the very highest echelons of the British government didn't have a proper handle on the reality on the ground going on in Nazi Germany."

Yes. Go back and read the thread. And remember, this is 1938. We're not at industrial death camps yet. We're at the stage where the "ill" are being euthanised in "small" (compared to what was to follow) numbers (and in secret), and the Jewish population is being deported. We're not dealing with a state that's set up to commit genocide. Yet.

German people. Actual Germans, didn't know how bad the Nazis were in 1945. What chance did Chamberlain have without your magic hindsight mirror?

As has been stated multiple times, people didn't know just how absolutely unhinged the Nazi party were. There's no precedent for the society they were trying to create.

To contemporary ears, it sounded like a defeated and unjustly treated people venting and ranting because of the bum deal they had after 1919.

And despite all that, as has been repeatedly pointed out, the guy was preparing us for war just in case this Austrian berk turned out to be a mass-murdering madman.

"Well I find that incredible."

Read that back. "I" find it incredible. "I".

"I" find it incredible that anyone could believe that The Black Death was caused by the sins of man. But I'm not a 12th century peasant with a religious complex and no grasp of how disease works.

I think what you're missing in this thread is that you can't apply 60 years of hindsight to Chamberlain's decisions in 1938.

I have yet to read a contemporary British account of 1938, or indeed a memoir, by anyone who wasn't

(a) sincerely dreading a re-run of WWI and
(b) grateful for Munich and afraid it wouldn't stick.

B

I've read and listened to many of Hitler's speeches of all through thirties..due to A Jewish friend's interest; he suggested it.

I can't imagine being Prime Minister of this country and not seeing the writing on the wall.

But hey yes maybe it's hindsight.

Thank god we had Churchill who was banging on about what was going on there..though fairly ignored as a voice during that period.

But then I find it hard to believe during WWll, that Churchil wouldn't have known about what was happening in Poland in the Death camps.

Why we didn't bomb Auchwitz I don't know.

I've visited both camp Auchwitz and Birkenau the actual industrial scale death camp; in Oswiecim, Poland...and it is truly incredible how huge the whole industrial complex was in that area.

When I visited many of those factories over a vast area were in use in the present as normal factories.

Has anyone watched Claude Lanzman's film Shoah?

It goes on for around 10 hours.

I was very impressed that the first time it was shown on British tv on C4...ad breaks were dispensed with.

>>I can't imagine being Prime Minister of this country and not seeing the writing on the wall.<<

>>I find it hard to believe during WWll, that Churchil wouldn't have known about what was happening in Poland in the Death camps.<<

Then the fault is with your imagination. We have plenty of evidence and witness accounts that these things were true. We're not talking about some far-off ancient history here, we still have eye-witnesses from these times walking amongst us - I've got a guy in my Urdu class who can remember Chamberlain and the Munich agreement perfectly well.

You have to accept that when your imagination conflicts with widely-established fact, your imagination is the thing that's wrong. I've just read about the exploits of the original Assassins in the Middle East: as I was reading my jaw dropped lower and lower, I couldn't believe the stuff they did. But they did it and I accept it.

>>Why we didn't bomb Auchwitz I don't know<<

Churchill didn't know about Auschwitz or the other Death Camps because very few people did: there were almost no escapees and they tended to be staffed by the most fanatical Waffen-SS troops so there were very few deserters. The British spy network in Germany and the occupied territories was no good because civilians and the rank and file of the Nazi armies didn't know what was going on.

>>Why we didn't bomb Aucshwitz I don't know<<

Because we didn't know about it and, even if we did, we lacked the technology to do anything about: it was deep inside Poland and far beyond the range of our bombers/fighters - a raid on it would have meant a flight over more than 1,000 miles of enemy territory. Unless it was a suicide mission, you've then got to fly the same distance back. We simply didn't have the capability to do it.

>>Has anyone watched Claude Lanzman's film Shoah<<

Case in point: the word 'Shoah' only got used for the Holocaust afterwards, after we all discovered what had been going on. It wasn't used before or in contemporary accounts. You are applying vast amounts of hindsight which means you can't accurately judge what Chamberlain was actually going through.

<> QOTD

<>

I don't think that's right. The Waffen SS were the fighting troops. The SS guards at camps tended to be those too lame or stupid to serve a useful purpose in a fighting unit and were drawn from the Allgemeine SS.

The Waffen SS were arguably the first European Army, with volunteers from almost every country - including Britain. The final defence of the Reichstag was largely conducted by Spanish & French SS units. After the war, the French Foreign Legion was the destination for many Waffen SS soldiers who escaped arrest. It's said that at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954, there were more Germans than any other nationality.

The SS guards at the death camps largely slipped away and became traffic wardens in Edinburgh.

I agree on QOTD.

>> The Waffen SS were arguably the first European Army, with volunteers from almost every country - including Britain.

???

That's interesting. Could you tell us more? And why you discount the crusades, or indeed the Allies at Waterloo?

Mainly due to their unified training, command structure and interoperability with other arms. The Crusades were effectively a number of mini-armies loosely controlled by one or more leaders. Same at Waterloo - the different armies operated alongside each other but not as one complete unit.

Though I'd grant you the Romans might have a claim

I think the concept of Europe is post-Roman. At least to modern historians