h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Seriously kea I want to think good things about them...and I had posted quite a lot involving Ed in trying to get away from that 'oppostional' mode of discussion; also applauding Otto..did you not read any of that? I wrote a lot of stuff about thinking differently.

My best friend is big into them and she talked about different ideas of democracy that she discussed with them.

But still she knows I'm not that kind of radical at heart. But I am with them..it's difficult



I have a mental illness Off to watch a medical soap now. Might be back later.

@ Frs.

A tad patronising, perhaps, to assume that I must be missing out on something?

I had a good time. I and another Researcher talked to some folk. My overriding impression? 'Christiania without the smoke.' Now...I like Christianis. I visit it when I can. It's a good place for exchanges of ideas. And for the smoke. *But* do I think it will change the world? It hasn't yet. One of the occupiers descried it as 'Like a big community centre.' Agreed - this is not nothing. Its spontaneous eruption is a definite Something. But at the end of the day I'm more interested in actions than ideas. I'm a Materialist. So sue me. Yes - they have their Tent University (with a Jeremy Clarkson book on the shelves. I ave photographic evidence) where people educate one another - as per your examples. This is good. And yet, and yet...'The point is not to understand the world but to change it.'

Are these constructive or destructive criticisms? That's for others to say. But what I would suggest is that any movement needs criticism. I'm basically on their side and that is the spirit in which I comment.

However I don't think it's for you, kea, to tell me whether or not I've understood. Probably everyone in the movement has a different understanding - and I suggest that this is a potential weakness. But at least give me the credit, eh, of sincerely trying to find out? I've read the papers and Facebook feeds - albeit possibly different ones to those that you have - and have formed my own opinions. Why need it be a problem to you that my opinions are different to yours. *At least I've been and talked to the guys.* Accept, please, that I am not criticising from a position of total ignorance.

And great fun it was, too. Followed by nice Chinese food with fun Swedish folk.

Frs:

>>I had posted quite a lot involving Ed in trying to get away from that 'oppostional' mode of discussion

No. I am not opposition. 'Critical' and 'oppositional' are different things. Do you see that? Back-slapping consensus doesn't get shit done.

>> Why should we care about Occupy Wallstreet? <<

Perhaps because it began as a grass roots movement by
people who felt disenfranchised by the political and
economic system that is letting them down.

Unlike most protest movements it was an almost spontaneous
movement by real people, people who are suffering from the
unfair situations resulting from the greed of Wall Street
and the uselessness of politicians.

It is also unique in that it was not 'organised' or even
planned by any pre-existing political group. It has, as kea
has been trying to say, grown 'organically', outside all the
usual parameters of protest movements. It has no labels, no
specific agenda, no identifiable group or political identity.

But it's being sabotaged from within by the homeless and border-
line criminal elements who already live on the streets as they
gravitate to it for whatever opportunistic reasons they have.

In one Canadian city the 'student' element drove out the 'homeless'
hangers on and sent them scurrying to another site - where, to
everyone's surprise, the city met with the homeless and began
assessing individual needs for housing and support. Nobody from
city hall has talked to the student/intellectual group because
they don't seem to know what they want.

Meanwhile, vagrancy, anti-camping, sanitation and traffic obstruction
laws are being invoked to clear out most campsites. That plus the
coming colder weather is reducing most Canadian sites to homeless
hobo jungles stinking of human wastes and not winning any friends
among the average citizens.


~jwf~

@swl:

Sorry - I didn't see your question re. taxable donations in time. If I had I surely would have asked it. ()

I can imagine what the answer might have been, though. Firstly Occupy is not a defined entity. There is no controlling mind. Nobody is in charge. Are you able to even grasp this concept? My guesstimate is that very little tax would be due from the various individual to whom money has been (collectively) donated.

(Note that this is very different to companies in which the money *does*flow in the direction of identifiable owners or shareholders.)

Secondly - all the donations are going in operating costs. Tax would only be due on profits.

Null points for that, oh snide one.

Post 442. Oops. I began it with @Frs instead of @kea. . Easily confused.

Damn, closed down the browser and lost the links but occupylsx are channeling donations through the bank account of the nearby climate change camp whilst they set up their own bank account so there does seem to be someone in charge. The Glasgow occupy crowd talked about a non-hierarchical horizontal democratic structure where everyone had an equal voice and the right to have that voice heard in a non-judgemental way. Man.

And unless the account holders and recognised "voice-enablers" (I shit ye not ) keep orderly accounts of the £1000 a day they're raising, HMRC is going to take a very dim view

Or are they just using a convenient bank account because people need to be paid and shit?

You read waaaaaaaaaaaay too much of that sixth form t*sser Guido Fawkes, swl. With you it's always the politics of nyah nyah. At the end of the day, what's inportant? Do you *seriously* think that someone is creaming off a fat living from donations?






(can we really not say t*sser? srsly?)

I mean - come on - it would be the first revolution to be suppressed by HMRC.

>almost spontaneous
movement by real people, people who are suffering from the
unfair situations resulting from the greed of Wall Street
and the uselessness of politicians. <

Yes and we have our own massive problems here..so who cares about the US? We've had decades of poodling up to the Americans. People are thoroughly sick of it.

*Our* economy is intertwined with Europe now. Who cares what they are doing? I don't. I care about what's going on here. We had riots in the summer, it's that bad. Did the Americans?

Spontaneous stuff that resulted in massive panic by the authorities. I don't see authorities panicking there. We also had the student riots.

I prefer to go with stuff that emerges from here not ape something emerging from American culture.

>> I prefer to go with stuff that emerges from here
not ape something emerging from American culture. <<


Now that's honest. And it makes sense.
Thanks.


~jwf~

of course, all those Occupy Camps in the US have been moved along in a peaceable fashion

no-one there would have taken a little tickley bit of pepper spray in their face or anything

sorry but shut up.

Howdy, everybody!

My, how busy it's been here!

For what it's worth, Everything ~ jwf ~ said in 444 strikes me as a completely accurate description of Occupy in Canada although I'd like to add (as I said earlier, before I was told that I was simply wrong about the political situation in Canada) . . .

In Canada the gap between rich and poor is not as severe as in the country to the south and that gap has not significantly changed in twenty five years (this is not opinion, it is fact substantiated by Statistics Canada),

channels of civil communication between the people and their elected representatives remain very open *for those willing to use them* (this is not opinion, it is experience, as I mentioned earlier),

the occupy encampments in Canada categorically do not have the support of a significant portion of ordinary Canadians, and, as ~ jwf ~ mentioned, what su`p`port they had has dropped precipitously,

the Canadian Government regulated the banking industry conscientiously, so there was no collapse here, there was no absurd bail-out here . . .

Now, an opinion, if I may: Occupy Edmonton's encampment makes me feel terribly sorry for the uninformed youngsters manning the tents -- both of them.

And, I'll say it again:

Who are my democratic representatives?

The City Councillor I voted for, whom I've met and chatted with at neighbourhood get-togethers?

The Mayor I voted for, whom I've met and chatted with at art gallery events?

The Member of the Provincial Legislative Assembly I voted for, whose kitchen I've stood in while she made hot chocolate for my disabled child while here disabled child played in the next room?

The Member of Parliament I voted for, who stood and chatted with me while the above mentioned MLA made hot chocolate for my daughter?


Or a couple of kids standing on a street corner holding a banner saying 'we demand a ratified constitution'?


Who of that bunch represents democracy?


I'll be completely honest in my opinion:


I find the Occupy movement *in Canada*, in its claims of democracy, to be offensive in the extreme.



Yes, the economic situation in the rest of the world has and will impact me and my country. But the suggestion that *our* democracy is broken, disfunctional and in need of some sort of revival or resurrection at the hands of a few people camping out illegally and holding up inarticulate slogans is absurd in the extreme.






(go ahead and quote Suzuki at me: he's an honoured Canadian icon. And a very wealthy man. He's absolutely right about the tendency of many Canadians to forget to vote. It's a tragedy. But the fact that many Canadians don't vote doesn't mean that our democracy is broken. It just means that many Canadians don't vote. They're free to engage or disengage. If they choose to disengage, that's their disfunction, not the country's. And all those non-voters certainly aren't running down to engage with Occupy.)


More than 'nuff said. I'm off to continue my engagement.

Well as someone who lives in country where voting in general elections is usually in the 70-90% range, I'd have to disagree with your sentiments about democracy. If people aren't involved at even that rudimentary level, then it's a poor kind of democracy. Maybe Canada is such a paradise that people don't feel the need to vote? Or maybe not.

~jwf~'s post didn't seem the same as yours anhaga, so I guess it's something to do with presentation, or perhaps that he left out the stuff about democracy and entitlement.

Strangely enough I happen to know more Canadians than just you and ~jwf~, including people who have a strong political analysis, and one friend who is part of the Canadian underclass. Her views are somewhat different to yours which is the place I was arguing from. You can portray that as me (a non-Canadian) telling you (a Canadian) that you don't understand the political nature of your own country, but all that does is suggest you want us to accept you as THE expert. Sorry, I'm not inclined to do that. But I was surprised at how contentious it has been in this thread to challenge your ideas, it's not something I would generally expect of you.

>>
I find the Occupy movement *in Canada*, in its claims of democracy, to be offensive in the extreme.
<<

Which I think is the point. I don't have a problem with you not liking occupy at home, although I find your characterisation of the people involved unhelpful and emotionally loaded (again not something I would expect from you). But it does makes sense if you are that offended

>>
However I don't think it's for you, kea, to tell me whether or not I've understood.
<<

Ed, I'm sorry that I came across as patronising. I'm not sure how to say what I want without risking that. I'm only going off what you are saying here. The statements you make don't match what I am seeing. And let's be clear, I'm not saying you are ignorant about occupy. You're obviously putting thought and time and energy into understanding this. I just think that there are things that I see that you are missing. I named a whole bunch of them earlier, at your request, which you haven't responded to, so how can I think otherwise?

>> But at the end of the day I'm more interested in actions than ideas.

Strange, because that's what I would say to you. I see all sorts of actions being done, things being achieved, and you seem to see inaction, lack of analysis, lack of agenda and focus etc.


Thanks for telling us how the visit went

>>
*Our* economy is intertwined with Europe now. Who cares what they are doing? I don't. I care about what's going on here. We had riots in the summer, it's that bad. Did the Americans?

Spontaneous stuff that resulted in massive panic by the authorities. I don't see authorities panicking there. We also had the student riots.

I prefer to go with stuff that emerges from here not ape something emerging from American culture.
<<

I don't know if Occupy in the UK is ape-ing or not. But I'm unclear what you are saying. Do you mean that the only useful thing is rioting and making the authorities panic?

Anyone who thinks that what happens to the US economy and politics doesn't affect their own country is unaware of how power works in the world. And hasn't been paying attention to recent history

I have no problem at all with you not caring about OWS, or occupy at home. I just wonder why you need to come into this thread with the 'it's all a waste of time' mantra.

Just going back to swl's earlier post:

http://libcom.org/forums/news/open-...ivist-forum-occupy-glasgow-01112011

"Far right supporters in the occupy movement? "

Is that a surprise?

I read the letter, and was sad but not surprised. Haven't read the comments or the website context yet.

'. . . one friend who is part of the Canadian underclass.'

In the interest of full disclosure before I bow out of this discussion:


I am a single parent of a quite intellectually disabled teenager. We live below the poverty line and depend on a good deal of social assistance. I don't know if we count as part of the underclass. I don't really care. I have quite wealthy friends and neighbours and I have friends and neighbours who struggle to make ends meet and depend on social assistance. I don't think any of us consider any of us to be members of a 'class'.


(But every single one of us votes.)

>>..he left out the stuff about democracy and entitlement. <<

That's cuz concepts like democracy and entitlement
are just the fuzzy wuzzy vocal interplay that hides
the fact that we live in a tribal society. It's all just
grunting and chanting, ritualised to balance the needs
of the 99% with the desires of the 1%. Or perhaps the
needs of the 1% with the unrealistic desires of the 99.

Not that I consider political intercourse a bad thing.
It's just a human thing. And I am outside all that.

Like the Hunchback or Frankenstein's monster I gaze
with envy and tears upon anhaga's happy humanity.
His optimism stirs my heart. His anger at inequality,
injustice and the Inevitable Fates touches me deeply.
His love of family and country are inspirational. And
his faith in humanity sometimes frightens me, for I
have seen their pitchforks and torches.

I am staying safe in my cave, well below the poverty line,
and I wouldn't trade places with him even if I could.

But I'd love to see his whirled and drink his home-made beer,
if the price of gas ever goes down low enough that I can afford
to take a 6 thousand mile round trip.


~jwf~

My own love of country is evidenced by the fact
that I have not renewed my passport. There is no
other place I would feel safe. I'm here for the
duration, occupying my own little piece of British
North America 40km inland of the worst case tsunami
and 10km outside the 50 megaton ring around Halifax.
I await the radioactive zombie armies that will soon
come to occupy My Space.

~jwf~