h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I didn't think you were supporting Scargill FB, I was just curious what you thought the miners should have done given the politics going on within their union.

< I don't like scabbing think people who do it are the scum of the earth.>



My father-in-law worked at Timex in Dundee, he wasn't a member of the Union. The industrial problems at Timex were legend. Walk outs happened almost every week over things as trivial as toilet paper. Many people left the union because it was constantly endorsing trivial disputes by rabble-rousing shop stewards (and visiting rabble-rousers like Tommy Sheridan). New management came in and sacked half the nightshift. Sounds harsh maybe, but they were caught sleeping in a storeroom fitted out with mattresses they'd brought in for the purpose! During the subsequent strike my father in law (and others) kept working. He was physically attacked, his car was keyed, his windows smashed, dogshit put through his letterbox and his kids (inc my wife) spat on and beaten up at school.

Still, someone wants to say he was the "scum of the earth"

Thanks for posting that wiki link kea about the history of kettling.

>In 2009, a ruling by the House of Lords decided that the High Court was entitled to take into consideration the "purpose" of the deprivation of liberty before deciding if human rights laws applied at all.[10] Summing up, Lord Hope said:

There is room, even in the case of fundamental rights as to whose application no restriction or limitation is permitted by the Convention, for a pragmatic approach which takes full account of all the circumstances.
<

It does sound from that ruling, that despite the right to lawful protest, at any moment the police can decide to kettle, if they feel circumstance warrants it. Of course that can be used as a reason in an almost infinite number of ways.

It does mean that only some people have the lawful right to protest in reality. An older or infirm person may not risk at any moment being kettled, even if they behaving in a lawful manner. Many people with disabilities of various kinds will feel that daren't risk protesting.

The reason the kettling got such high profile publicity recently is that teenagers were caught up in it..because they were demonstrating about the change in the law concerning tuition fees, which will affect them. And of course they don't have the vote..and it appears now they more or less don't have the right to protest on the streets, unless their parents let them attend with the knowledge their teenage child maybe kettled..whether or not they are doing anything wrong.

What time period as that in swl?

The problem is that for unions to work they need to have x number of people striking, so not striking or crossing a picket line has massive implications. There is no doubt that unions are needed. I know there are problems (past and present), including big problems, with unions. But working conditions and rights that we take for granted now were won literally by the deaths and damage of unionised or politicised workers.

"this is where kettling comes from, gather the mob in a confined space where your strengths are in the fore and they cannot use their strengths, also mas noted the media cannot be as effective, or incite any more."

Problem is, the Met either can't or (more likely) does not distinguish between a mob and a legitimate peaceful protest. And then cannot be trusted to give a truthful account about their actions afterwards.

And the sensationalist reporting doesn't help....

I'm sure the police have always had the right to break up a protest if they saw good reason to do so (protecting people or property). But corralling people in and keeping them there for 10 hours.... Taff, that's different than what you were describing also (it's one thing to corral people to break up a protest, it's another to corral them to keep them in place).

What did the police say about that? i.e. the rational for the length of time.

They really are being incredibly stupid. Enough of those young people will be radicalised by what the police are doing, and the ante will just be upped.

What are the police like elsewhere in the UK Otto? (does the Met refer to London, or all big city police?).

Don't know what is about the police but is there anywhere where their reputation is untarnished?

Sorry.... the "Met" is the London Metropolitan Police. Most of the major protests are in London. I guess I've grown up with the assumption that different regional police forces have slightly different characters and priorities.

More specifically, there's a police unit called the 'Territorial Support Group' within the Met who are responsible for, well, pretty much everything that's gone wrong in relation to protests

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/12/metropolitan-police-territorial-support-group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Support_Group

There have been 5000 complaints about them (2005-2009) of which only 9 have been substantiated. I know it's a w*k*p*d** article, but it's hard not to view that litany of complaints and controversy and conclude that they're out of control and operating with impunity.

There's an old phrase that 'hard cases make bad law'. I don't know about the specifics of the Timex factory in Dundee, but I do know that I've never seen a scab turn down a pay rise or better working conditions that have been won by industrial action.

*delurks*

I had a photographer friend who was down observing the protest march, and he's picked up some interesting photos showing the 'kettle' overlooking the police to the protest behind..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sinister-pictures/5208104526/in/set-72157625468079414/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sinister-pictures/sets/72157625468079414/

*relurks*

Interesting photo! The police don't appear to have riot shields. Would they hold that crowd if it had had enough?

If they had riot shields and acted as a kind of barrier that wouldn't give, that would be incredibly dangerous if the crowd panicked. People could easily die.

This is what happened at the Hillsbrough football ground a few years ago after the government had decided to fence fans in at grounds. The full truth has never come out. Police decisions in that scenario in terms of crowd control, when fans were already pinned in and dying, up against the fence are thought to be a factor. (I'm not sure how blunt I can be here for legal reasons)

96 people died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster

I think if you are in a tightly controlled group of people, penned in by police, the ghost of Hillsbrough will hang over you. That's why I think many people will be so put off by these tactics.

Better still: A330652, The Hillsborough Tragedy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11967098

http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/enough-about-alfie-what-about-jim/

Is this a more-head-injury-than-thou competition or something?

Am I the only person who gets put off reading a post when it consists of three lines and two of those are links to some other site?

If I'm going to spend time reading someone's posts, I'd like to think they could spend a little time writing rather than link-foraging.

>>Am I the only person who gets put off reading a post when it consists of three lines and two of those are links to some other site?


No.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education...-fees-protest-kettling-human-rights

Student fees protest: lawyers launch legal challenge to kettling

[The plaintiffs] are represented by Bethany's father, Phil Shiner, of Public Interest Lawyers. He says the police tactics breach articles 5, 10 and 11 of the European convention on human Rights.

What a surprise.

<> Don't go near this thread then. Your head will explode - http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/brunel/F19585?thread=502685

Phil Shiner, quelle surprise.

Is he known?