h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I've come to the tentative conclusion that it's a mind game.

Ah, the droppeth.

Was the penny in freefall for a long time Orcus?

Sorry I'm completely lost.

It's a very straightforward question. And a pretty pressing one. Lots of people are probably going to suffer horribly in the years to come, given the seriousness of the deficit. After WWII there was rationing for years, to cope with the financial deficit. Rationing is probably politically unacceptable in this day and age. But it *is serious*.

If some people think its funny to come to a thread like this and play stupid games..oh well, I don't get it

In answer to Voice's comment:

Granting that tax raising alone cannot eliminate the deficit...why cuts alone? Or, come to that, Keynesian solutions which use spending to grow the economy and hence the tax intake?

I got really annoyed with the Labour budget: they're facing an election they can't possibly win, they're incredibly unpopular and there's massive problems with the economy.

I don't know why they didn't use it as a chance to do the unthinkable and raise taxes. They could have made a compelling case, highlighting the need and avoided any hint of using the public purse for electioneering. No vote-grabbing giveaways, but instead a sensible solution to a problem no-one is prepared to fully face.

It'd have put the Tories on the wrong side of the argument and they'd have probably picked up points for honesty. Sadly, they lacked the testicular fortitude for such actions.

Oh well

It's the legacy of Thatcherism, though: No party dare advocate increased taxation. You're too young to remember 'Labour's Double Whammy'.

Livingstone recently suggested we should '...tax the rich until their pips squeak.'

>they're facing an election they can't possibly win<

I don't feel so pessimistic. I still think Labour can win. When you get in that ballot booth about to put your cross against the Tories who have been outa power for so long..led by a baby faced old Etonian..or grim faced dour old seadog Brown..I reckon lots of people might have their minds concentrated.

I may put a few quid on Labour.

@Monkey@HonestTony

Tax until pips squeak - wasnt that Healy? But yes what party is going to say they're going to raise taxes so vote for me hi-fiddledy-dee? Everybody knows they're going to be taxed and taxed and raxed again until this £1,400,000,000,000 debt that is increasing at £176,000,000,000 a year is under control. Because the rate of increase is so monumentally high and income tax cannot possibly cover it although there are of course other taxes and incidentally @Orcus the 48p in the pound refers only to income tax and nat ins so yes there are going to be cuts. but all the partys have a cosy consensus of saying they wont cut health or education or this or that. they're lying. Did I hear someone at the back say cut defence spending? Well you could cut the entire defence budget of £38000,000,000 a year and still only have cut therate at which the debt is gettiing bigger by a 1/4. This country is collapsing because Thatcher/Major/Blair/Brown have refused to see that empire is gone and Britain isn't Great any more. They keep the monstrosity that is Trident to keep a seat at the UN because without that SC seat Britain would have as much say in the world as Belgium. Less. At least the Torys had oil and gas money to finance spending beyond our means and pretending we were still if not the world policeman, his amiable deputy but Blair and Brown have borrowed and borrowed and printed money to keep thefacade in place. Well it's about to come home to roost my friends. This isn't going to be pretty and I for one will not be surprised if the NHS and the Welfare State are just memories twenty years from now.

.....and breath

"@Orcus the 48p in the pound refers only to income tax and nat ins"

I'm not Orcus, who would doubtless be terribly offended.

And even with your subsequent qualification, I still don't believe that figure is even close to being right.

According to w*k*p*dia, NI brings in 105 billion, and income tax 155 billion = total approx 260 billion. This is about 48% of total income. For your figure to be correct, the taxation system would have to cost approx 130 billion to run, or 25% of current income. Or 10 billion more than health. Or the same as Education and Defence put together. This is clearly not the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UKExpenditure.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom

Voice:

>>
Tax until pips squeak - wasnt that Healy?

Yes, it was. Livingstone was making a reference.

>>But yes what party is going to say they're going to raise taxes so vote for me hi-fiddledy-dee?

Which is my point about the post-Thatcherite anti-tax agenda. Why *shouldn't* we use taxation a) to spread the suffering more evenly amongst the middle-income employed and b) challenge the old myth that the wealthy will take their business elsewhere.

But, yes, I do agree that Britain should start to pull its (light) weight on the world stage. Does Norway need a nuclear deterrent? And yet their government is *hugely* successful, diplomatically. Want some tricky diplomatic negotiation done? Phone the Norwegian government!

(mind you...their enormous Sovereign Wealth Fund maybe gives them some clout.)

apologies @Otto and @Orcus.

Harrumph. I'm going to have to consult my source please bear with me I thought it was authoritave maybe I'm missing something.

@Monkey

There is a difference between Britain and Norway and not just the beautiful women. Norways role in a perceived conflict with USSR was to be invaded and conquered hopefully slowing the Soviets a bit. Britain's role was to be the unsinkable aircraft carrier allowing reinforcement from USA to Europe to halt Soviets. If Soviets occupied UK it was game over. UK had to have ultimate big stick. You may say that this is in the past and not relevant but many believe the Russians have never eally gone away.

Which is of course entirely irelevant to the discussion. Please excuse.

Wake up people we're 3rd on this list, behind Iceland and Greece..both of whom are virtually bankrupt.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/7269629/Britains-deficit-third-worst-in-the-world-table.html

We're in deep deep doo dah..and you're all fiddling whilst Rome burns..we all are. Now is the phoney war. It'll all kick off after the election is over and no-one here is giving hard suggestions.

Me. Cancel Trident. Get out of Afghan. Cut defence in general to the bone. Tax high earners. Tax the banks. Cancel all new transport schemes and road building...Cancel all overseas' aid.

Okay I'm no expert on this stuff, and people will probably jump all over me. But this is what's gonna happen. Am I the only one prepared to put my head above the parapet for starters?

>>UK had to have ultimate big stick

Which could only ever be fired with American permission. (and, of course, as a NATO member, Norway fell under the same nuclear umbrella)

All off topic, though. Back to Tax or Cut!

@Monkey - "Which could only ever be fired with American permission" - Myth.

@Effers

Helloo? Defence is cut to bone already. We have no navy, an inbalanced air force and we struggle to keep barely a division of troops supplied. What are you going to cut- military socks?

Cut foreign aid? Good one. Like money spent on education in Pakistan when education is the one thing that stops a poor tribesperson picking up a rifle and joining Taliban? Foreign aid stops countries turning into failed states. More failed statess more terrorism more refugeees more immigrants. Every pound spent preventing this saves countless pounds spent on welfare for refugees that come here as a direct result of nnot spending abroad

The question is rather stupid, the cuts should obviously come from the public sector where there is plenty of fat to go at. There is nowhere else to go. Manufacturing industry has been cut to the bone, hopefully not beyond the point of no return. Services need not suffer.

>>the cuts should obviously come from the public sector where there is plenty of fat to go at<<

And you'd know that how?