h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Grammar is really popular. I even remember their being a song it the charts a few years ago about how much this bunch of kids loved it. Saint WInnifreds school choir.

*wacca wacca wacca*

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az

St Winnifred's is, of course, a famous grammar school.

How ironic. Puneeshed for bad grammar on a posting punning about grandma on a thread all about grammar.

*hangs head in shame*

>>I had a big row over Trainspotting - I was convinced that only the first chapter had been written in broad dialect and thought the rest must have been written in plain english. When I checked it turned out I as talking bunkum - it was just that my 'ea' for the narrative had got used to the spelling and inflections so I didn't notice it after the first chapter <<

I've only seen Trainspotting on video and in New Zealand it has subtitles for the first 20 mins (your ear adjusts after that). I always thought it was the film-makers taking the piss but actually it did help. I've seen at least one other Scottish film that had subtitles in the first 20 mins.

I have a Glaswegian friend who's lived here for years and still most people have to ask him to repeat himself. I think he does this deliberately to an extent (perverse Scot that the is ).


Anyway, 80 odd posts in 4 hours in a thread about the sentence "The dog was barking loudly". Nice to see Ask being put to such good use


Can someone explain infinitives?

What do you want to know?

az

in spanish an infinitive is the primary word before addition of endings. such words as to eat, to drink etc

In English, also, the infinitive is the form of the verb that is not associated with any person or time: to eat, to talk, to be.

Somebody once made up a rule that it was incorrect to "split an infinitive", that is, to put any word between the word "to" and the verb itself. Why they made up this rule is beyond me, because English speakers have always done it. Grammar is supposed to codify in rules the way that people speak, not the way they should speak.

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Certainly, it, and beyond, is where Buzz Lightyear likes to boast about going to in the film 'Toy Story'.



See, I was going to avoid this thread after my terrible play on 'Grandma/Grammar we love you' by the St Winnifreds School Choir, but, in pun terms, they just keep on getting set up here, so I have to keep on knocking them down. It's genetic.

Agree with Gnomon.

The split infinitive as a problem is nothing I've ever been able to understand.

To be really happy.

To really be happy.

Problem?

I don't think so. Except the second sentence seems to put more emphasis on 'really'.


az

to be really happy suggests an extreme amount of happiness

to really be hapy suggests that the happiness is real

"Somebody once made up a rule that it was incorrect to 'split an infinitive', that is, to put any word between the word 'to' and the verb itself. Why they made up this rule is beyond me, because English speakers have always done it."

I thought you could explain everything, Gnommon. No?

The thing is, you can't split infinitives in Latin (unless you use a tmesis) so *of course* you can't split them in 'proper' English either.

The 'no prepositions at the end of a sentence' rule is of similar origin.

You'd be well advised to ignore both these rules: "Grammar is supposed to codify in rules the way that people speak, not the way they should speak."

TRiG.

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I agree - whatever are you talking about?

Well, okay, that's a question, slightly different rules. But I could still say - ' I have no idea what you are talking about'.

Having to say - 'I have no idea about what you are talking' sounds, well, somewhat stupid and quite clumsy.

So, agreeing with TriG that these two particular rules - against the split infinitive and ending sentences with a preposition - are rules that most people have never truly understood. Nor have ever used in day-to-day life.

Just like how many people use who and whom *incorrectly*. Who cares?


az

I understood that an infinitive in Latin was a single word. So of course you can't split it. Why should that have any relevance to English?

And why is there an 's' in island?

Because stupid grammarians thought that the rules of Latin should apply to English, that's why! They figured island comes from insula, so it should have an s. In fact iland is an old English word, even and Old English word.

Oh, don't start on English spelling! Nobody understands it, you just have to memorise the stuff.

Just like pronunciation. Check it out:

though, through, thought, bough, cough - all 'ough'. gaaaaa.


az

But 85% of English words are spelled completely according to the spelling rules that are taught to 5-year-olds in school.

Spelling rules??? What spelling rules?

In Spain they are curious about tv programmes that show kids having spelling bees at school - testing their spelling. Because in Spanish everything is spelled exactly how it is pronounced (with the exception of the silent h and b&v sounding the same).

How does the word 'beautiful' fit into any English spelling rules? (for example)


az

Should spelling be a reflection of pronunciation or of meaning?

English does have spelling rules. The silent /n/ in /autumn/ reminds us of the sounded /n/ in /autumnal/.

The relationship between spelling and pronunciation is, at times, tenuous. But that is not, in English, the important point. In English, it's more important that related words have similar spellings. Other languages may do things differently.

beautiful - byú
beatific - bé.a
beau - bó

TRiG.

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That's a rule?



az

Someone once posted a rather lovely poem here on h2g2 (somewhere in the vast uncharted depths!), highlighting the many confusing variations in spelling and pronunciation that can cause such confusion to non-native speakers (and the rest of us, in some cases!).

Don't know what to search for, though.

I think it came from one of our German residents, or an ex-pat living in Germany. I don't *think* it was Trillian's Child...

... who was it?!*? Can't remember.

It was good, though...