h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

For the past couple of days I've been watching Israel raining down bombs on Gaza. I've read comments here on h2g2. My impression is that the Palestinian people are virtually powerless against Israel. The weapons of Hamas are feeble but they use them to great effect in focusing the attention of the world on their plight.

Benjamin Netanyahu was on the news earlier, saying we shouldn't allow the Palestinians to dupe us. Israel can't just sit back and let its citizens be bombed. They have to a duty to take care of their own security. Even though Israel is killing Palestinian civilians, they're actually aiming for military targets, whereas Hamas is deliberately attacking from civilian areas and targeting Israeli civilians.

There's little no mention of *reasonable* reasons why this is happening - just the usual historical animosity between the two peoples. I watched a documentary a while ago that made a lot more sense of it all. It was about water. Israel/Palestine is drying up. The Israeli parts of the land look green and the Palestinian parts look dead. There are aquifers under Palestinian farms, supplying wells that they depend on for water. Israel is draining these aquifers to supply its own needs. The desalination plants are nowhere near enough to solve the problem and, in any case, use up vast amounts of energy to operate.

The future looks bleak for such a heavily populated area. It looks like a struggle for survival that would get a lot more bloody and violent if the eyes of the world were to lose focus.

Or have I got it all wrong?

No, I don't think you have got it all wrong.

But I'm not sure what 'the eyes of the world' CAN see at the moment,
because a lot of them are blinkered, imo.

Perhaps that's it. Jeremy Bowen said on the news last night that Israel refused to stop the bombing until they had a "permanent solution". I don't know why the words "final solution" kept echoing through my head. Today some other 'talking head' (on the BBC news again) said they couldn't understand why the Palestinians had started this "illogical" fight. That puzzlement seems quite understandable if 1) the Palestinians started it and 2) the "logical" thing for the Palestinians to do, is give up the fight for survival.

Maybe they're both right. The preferred solution of both (up the fundamentalist ends of the two sides (and they're the ones who seem to be running the show)) might be to eliminate the other completely. But they can't do it. Even though the world can't see everything that's happening, and can't avoid being hoodwinked, it's still watching.

"For the past couple of days I've been watching Israel raining down bombs on Gaza. I've read comments here on h2g2. My impression is that the Palestinian people are virtually powerless against Israel. The weapons of Hamas are feeble but they use them to great effect in focusing the attention of the world on their plight."

Hamas are not firing rockets into Israel to "[focus] the attention of the world on their plight", they are doing it to kill Israeli civilians which they sometimes manage to do. They have never really hidden this fact, one of Hamas's stated policies is to prosecute war with Israel.

It's worth remembering that the current war was also started by Hamas who chose to strike first when a ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas expired.

Having said that, I think Israel's response has been (as usual) disproportionate. They're stated tactic is to target Hamas, not Palestinians generally but in such a densely-populated area civilian casualties are going to be inevitably high. I'm actually pleased that Israel has moved to a ground-offensive because I think the likelihood of civilian casualties will be lower.

Of course, Hamas will spin the whole thing as a war against civilians and that'll play well to a population who have been both bombed and blockaded in recent months. It's interesting that a lot of supporters of military action against the Palestinians in Israel (and overseas) often talk the talk of swaggering revenge and wrath but can't seem to get their head around the fact that Palestinians think the same way. Nobody is going to accept being cowed or beaten into submission which is why the solution to the Palestinian-Israel problem must be one where neither side feels they have "lost" or "backed-down".

>2) the "logical" thing for the Palestinians to do, is give up the fight for survival.

Firing rockets at Israeli civilians is not "the fight for survial", it's an attempt to kill people because you hate them. This sort of thing is not acceptable in any circumstances ever. Whilst I think Israel still has much to do (dismantle her "settlements" in the West Bank for one) the Palestinians as a whole must stop pursuing the policy of revenge. Fatah have, albeit belatedly, taken serious steps towards doing this and thus have more of a chance of actually securing any sort of state and self-confidence for their people. Hamas, like other far-right movements, offer simple solutions which will just bring more and more misery down on the heads of the people they profess to be fighting for.

"There's little no mention of *reasonable* reasons why this is happening - just the usual historical animosity between the two peoples. I watched a documentary a while ago that made a lot more sense of it all. It was about water. Israel/Palestine is drying up. The Israeli parts of the land look green and the Palestinian parts look dead. There are aquifers under Palestinian farms, supplying wells that they depend on for water. Israel is draining these aquifers to supply its own needs. The desalination plants are nowhere near enough to solve the problem and, in any case, use up vast amounts of energy to operate."

As for the war, Israel's tactic seems to be to disable Hamas's military capability in order to end attacks on its territory. The thing to remember is that Israel's government come under fire (so to speak) every time they fail to respond to a rocket attack by Palestinian terrorist groups so even the more "dovish" elements are likely to respond eventually (not that I'm saying the current government is dovish, but you get the poitn). Unfortunately, I think Israel also has a habit of doing things that hugely antagonise the Palestinians to little gain. The tendency to "collective punishment" (ie the blockade of Gaza) is one such thing. The thing you mention about water is another (although I think this is blown-up by pro-Palestinian groups to make Israel look bad - I don't think the Palestinian's main problems are down to their not having enough water).

Thanks for your response Zagreb.

I'm sorry the following sounds as though I've taken sides. It just sounds that way though. I have a lot of sympathy for both sides in this dispute and I consider the *moderate* Israelis very fine people.


>>Hamas are not firing rockets into Israel to "[focus] the attention of the world on their plight", they are doing it to kill Israeli civilians which they sometimes manage to do. They have never really hidden this fact, one of Hamas's stated policies is to prosecute war with Israel.<<

When I listened to the report on the news a couple of days ago, they said Hamas had fired 80 rockets over a period since the end of the cease-fire and they'd killed (at that time) 3 Israelis. They may have murderous intentions (I don't doubt it), but their weapons or the weapons' operators must be unfit for purpose. Yesterday the figures that stuck out were 4 Israelis killed by Hamas rockets and 480 Palestinians killed by Israeli bombs. It seems unbalanced to say the least.


>>It's worth remembering that the current war was also started by Hamas who chose to strike first when a ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas expired.<<

"The current war" makes it sound as though it's more than one war. Perhaps I have a distorted view, but the view I have is that the Palestinians had a home land and had no wish to be slung out of it, dispossessed or subjugated. They're in this to get their home and their rights back. It won't end until they do. Why did it resume as soon as the cease-fire ended? Was it because (as has been reported) Israel has Gaza in a strangle hold and won't let supplies through or business thrive?


>>Having said that, I think Israel's response has been (as usual) disproportionate. They're stated tactic is to target Hamas, not Palestinians generally but in such a densely-populated area civilian casualties are going to be inevitably high<<

I agree with that.


>>Of course, Hamas will spin the whole thing as a war against civilians and that'll play well to a population who have been both bombed and blockaded in recent months. It's interesting that a lot of supporters of military action against the Palestinians in Israel (and overseas) often talk the talk of swaggering revenge and wrath but can't seem to get their head around the fact that Palestinians think the same way. Nobody is going to accept being cowed or beaten into submission which is why the solution to the Palestinian-Israel problem must be one where neither side feels they have "lost" or "backed-down".<<

And that.


>>Firing rockets at Israeli civilians is not "the fight for survial", it's an attempt to kill people because you hate them. This sort of thing is not acceptable in any circumstances ever. Whilst I think Israel still has much to do (dismantle her "settlements" in the West Bank for one) the Palestinians as a whole must stop pursuing the policy of revenge. Fatah have, albeit belatedly, taken serious steps towards doing this and thus have more of a chance of actually securing any sort of state and self-confidence for their people. Hamas, like other far-right movements, offer simple solutions which will just bring more and more misery down on the heads of the people they profess to be fighting for.<<

And some of that.

Dropping bombs on civilians is not legitimate either. The (mostly) impotent rockets of Hamas will store up bad feeling among the Israeli population, who have lost 4 of their people to them recently. But Israel is responding with a death toll of 100 to 1. That's a lot of hatred fomenting away in the overcrowded streets of Gaza and the rest. I don't advocate it, but I have to say, if my family and friends had been wiped out, revenge wouldn't be far from my mind either. It's a very understandable *human* emotion under the circumstances. It's not hard to imagine people getting insanely angry once they've lost everything they loved and their hope is all gone. Fatah has an uphill struggle - and wasn't Hamas democratically elected? Electing Hamas seems to me the insanely desperate last resort of a wounded people.


>>As for the war, Israel's tactic seems to be to disable Hamas's military capability in order to end attacks on its territory. The thing to remember is that Israel's government come under fire (so to speak) every time they fail to respond to a rocket attack by Palestinian terrorist groups so even the more "dovish" elements are likely to respond eventually (not that I'm saying the current government is dovish, but you get the poitn). Unfortunately, I think Israel also has a habit of doing things that hugely antagonise the Palestinians to little gain. The tendency to "collective punishment" (ie the blockade of Gaza) is one such thing. The thing you mention about water is another (although I think this is blown-up by pro-Palestinian groups to make Israel look bad - I don't think the Palestinian's main problems are down to their not having enough water).<<

Most of that too. Except

The thing about the water being blown-up by pro-Palestinian groups doesn't ring true - or at least, I hadn't heard anything about it until watching this documentary a while ago. If they're blowing it up, you'd think that it would be more widely known and talked about. It was the thing that made the whole thing seem comprehensible to me. It's happening in a lot of places. Water wars are anticipated. If Palestinians have had their land confiscated and then they can't grow anything on the bit that's left - because, having taken the best, Israel is appropriating the water from under the rest - it must taste very bitter to Palestinians. Almost like a slow genocide.

It would be good to see an end to the hatred and thirst for revenge, but how can that happen while it's being endlessly stoked up by extremists or fundamentalists on both sided?

>When I listened to the report on the news a couple of days ago, they said Hamas had fired 80 rockets over a period since the end of the cease-fire and they'd killed (at that time) 3 Israelis. They may have murderous intentions (I don't doubt it), but their weapons or the weapons' operators must be unfit for purpose. Yesterday the figures that stuck out were 4 Israelis killed by Hamas rockets and 480 Palestinians killed by Israeli bombs. It seems unbalanced to say the least.

It's important to remember the following: Hamas *intentionally* and *deliberately* try and kill Israeli civilians. Israel's response (in this instance at least) is against Hamas itself rather than the Palestinians. It's important to remember this. Also, most of those Palestinians killed (according to the news reports I've seen, anyway) appear to be Hamas operatives, people who chose war with Israel anyway. The "not fit for purpose" thing is a bit of a limp argument, I'm afraid. Regardless of their capabilities, Hamas's aims (which they've succeeded with in a few instances).

It's also important to remember that when Hamas were elected they actually fought a war against Fatah agencies in the West Bank - fellow Palestinians - and seized control of the territory. These are not really reasonable people.

>>"The current war" makes it sound as though it's more than one war. Perhaps I have a distorted view, but the view I have is that the Palestinians had a home land and had no wish to be slung out of it, dispossessed or subjugated. They're in this to get their home and their rights back. It won't end until they do. Why did it resume as soon as the cease-fire ended? Was it because (as has been reported) Israel has Gaza in a strangle hold and won't let supplies through or business thrive?

There have been numerous wars between Israel and the Palestinians; I don't really take the view that it's just one war because the objectives and even combatants keep changing. The Palestinians have a right to a homeland and an independent country but many of them want the destruction of Israel in addition to this, including Hamas.

As for why the cease-fire ended, it was because Hamas attacked Israel. They argued it was in retaliation for the blockade but given that Hamas is committed to war with Israel and that trying to murder civilians isn't really a measured response to a blockade I don't really have any sympathy with their position.

>>Dropping bombs on civilians is not legitimate either.

If Israel is deliberately targeting civilians then I agree with you but I've seen no evidence they are.

>>Electing Hamas seems to me the insanely desperate last resort of a wounded people.

You should look more into Palestinian politics. Before Hamas arrived on the scene, the main Palestinian party was the centrist-nationalist movement Fatah. Fatah have become more moderate in recent years and favour dialogue with Israel over violence. Unfortunately they're also notoriously corrupt. Hamas have a reputation for efficiency as far as doing things for the Palestinians is concerned and it's on this that they seem to have broken Fatah's hold in Gaza which they then used to seize control of the territory by military means. Palestinians didn't elect Hamas because of "[the] insanely desperate last resort of a wounded people" so much as because Hamas promised an end to Fatah's corruption.

>>The thing about the water being blown-up by pro-Palestinian groups doesn't ring true - or at least, I hadn't heard anything about it until watching this documentary a while ago. If they're blowing it up, you'd think that it would be more widely known and talked about. It was the thing that made the whole thing seem comprehensible to me. It's happening in a lot of places. Water wars are anticipated. If Palestinians have had their land confiscated and then they can't grow anything on the bit that's left - because, having taken the best, Israel is appropriating the water from under the rest - it must taste very bitter to Palestinians. Almost like a slow genocide.

I've heard about it a lot because it gets mentioned quite a lot. As I said, it's wrong for Israel to do that (and I'm being careful here because I don't know much about the issue and I'm aware there's a great deal of propaganda about the Israeli-Palestinian situation so I'd rather see information from a non-biased source) but I don't think water is the Palestinian's main problem; that would be the lack of a nation state, a functioning economy and security. And I wouldn't use phrases like "slow genocide", that's very hyperbolic and a strange thing to say for someone who claims they're not taking sides.

>>Regardless of their capabilities, Hamas's aims (which they've succeeded with in a few instances) are completely unacceptable.

As it should have read.

Is it not more accurate to talk of an Israeli/Hamas conflict? 2.5m Palestinians live in the West Bank compared to 1.5m in Gaza. In the West Bank under Fatah, since a dialogue began between the parties the Palestinian economy has boomed (in relative terms) with new businesses proliferating throughout the area. In the West Bank the IDF forcibly removes illegal Israeli settlements.

Fatah choose dialogue - Hamas chooses rockets. The West Bank sees economic growth, Gaza gets invaded. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

And all because 4000 years ago, according to legend, some old guy believed or pretended that he had been promised a patch of land for his tribe by a supernatural being.

It shows for sure that genies are damned hard to get back into bottles.

PP

I guess I must have expressed myself pretty badly, Zagreb, for you to say I'm "someone who claims they're not taking sides". If I'm on a side, it's the side of innocent folks who just want to get on with their lives. I've never met a Palestinian so far as I'm aware, but I know several Jews (my cousins) - reasonable, moderate people who seem just like me, with a similar sort of outlook on life. But we're all just people and from what I've seen, it's the Palestinians who seem to be suffering the worst of it - and not really through any fault of their own. It's a shame they resorted to Hamas, but they were given the choice and (presumably) the majority chose the party they thought could best represent their interests. Perhaps that was a mistake. I wonder how many of the people Hamas does actually represent.

Also, I'm not comfortable with the notion that it's okay to bomb an area that's known to be densely populated so long as you don't have the stated intention of hitting civilians. Surely they know they're going to hit civilians, and find that acceptable. My possibly naive notion, is that either human life is important or it isn't - regardless of whether the person being bombed lives next-door to an extremist or not. Maybe I'm just daft to think such a thing, because if that was the accepted view, how could anyone justify having a war that involved modern technology, like dropping bombs? They'd have to go back to arranging battles between soldiers, on battle fields. Hmm.


>>Is it not more accurate to talk of an Israeli/Hamas conflict?<<

I don't know SWL. While civilians are getting it, it's not limited to Hamas. Both sides have their moderates who must feel very unhappy at the failure to find peace. And Israel has its fundamentalists too. Aren't Zionists fundamentalists with a lot of influence? Aren't they the ones building settlements on Palestinian land?

I've seen it said that Israel doesn't want peace, but I don't believe that. Israel is crippled by the disproportionate amount of GDP it has to devote to the military. Every time reservists are called up, their economy takes a huge hit. Personally, I think this is part of a deliberate policy orchestrated by Iran & Syria. Keep the pressure on Israel constantly. Force it to commit economic suicide through military spending whilst at the same time fight a (very effective) propaganda war designed to pressure the West & the US specifically to curtail economic support for Israel. Terrorism is cheap, anti-terrorist measures are ruinously and disproportionately expensive. Whilst Israel hasn't exactly helped itself, there have been a number of peace plans that have been scuppered by seeming Palestinian intrangisence. I believe that ordinary Israelis and ordinary Palestinians want peace, but extremists who sit hundreds of miles away keep stirring the pot.

Havng said that, it's obvious that Israel has it's own extremists who also exacerbate the situation.

On the other side of the coin

Israel has become a brutalised, paranoid nation. My wife talks to a lot of Israeli kids on her online RPG game. What comes across graphically is that these kids fervently believe that their country is the most powerful in the world and they are surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction. They believe their nation only exists today because of military strength and that this might is essential to their ongoing survival. The kids she speaks to are extremely disparaging, if not to say outright racist about their Arab neighbours. This basic lack of respect and hatred is being instilled in kids on both sides of the fence. We've all seen or heard about Palestinian kids tv programmes with cartoon characters lambasting Jewish "pigs" and praising suicide bombers.

The whole thing becomes self-perpetuating in such a scenario. Palestinians vote in what they believe are strong figures who will protect them, Israel does the same then both sides have to constantly prove their credentials.

>> Firing rockets at Israeli civilians is not "the fight for survival", it's an attempt to kill people because you hate them. <<

This might be true, to some extent. That's why I think the situation won't improve until the whole world is involved in a 'massive war'.

But analysing a bit deeper than hate ( which chronic war breeds ),
one would have to discuss zionism, which is by no means universal in
Israel/Palestine. This is surely blatant racism, imo. It's saying that God is a racist. (chosen people etc.)

God doesn't favour any nation or tribe, other than 'He' would be on the side of those who were righteous and just.

If neither party in a war are righteous and just, God can't help anyone!

warner

Of course Yaweh favours a certain tribe: Isreal is the living proof that. Yaweh said the Jews (his chosen people) would get their own homeland and it has come to pass that the prophecy as come true. The Jews have every right in saying THEY are the chosen people and the rest of humanity are gentiles.

Of course Yaweh favours a certain tribe: Christians are
living proof that. Yaweh sent down his one and only son give the new covenant. You are only saved if you let Christ into your heart and convert to Christianity. A Jew therefore would not be saved as they wouldn't be a Christian.

Of course Yaweh favours a certain tribe: Muslims are
living proof that. Yaweh sent a 3rd prophet Mohammed after Moses and Jesus(NOT the son of God as Christians said but a prophet of Yaweh). Mohammed showed the world the new way that Yawah wished us all to live our lives by. To be saved we must become a Muslim otherwise we will remain a kuffar and not be saved...hence Jews and Christians will not be saved.

God has made his choice in every one of the 3 examples above. Depending on whether you area Jew, a Christian or Muslim will tell you which tribe Yaweh favours.

Oh and you can't be all 3 at once; they all believe in different things. Apart from the Jews and Muslims...different sides of the same coin.

>>Oh and you can't be all 3 at once; they all believe in different things. Apart from the Jews and Muslims...different sides of the same coin.<<


Christians are the fancy pattern around the edges of the same coin.

3Dotsplus1

To be saved we must become a Muslim ... Christian ... Jew ...
catholic ... protestant ... sunni ... shia ... bla bla bla

God knows who will be saved. But it won't be the arrogant, from my understanding.
I do understand your feelings.

Heart ... Heart ... Heart

SWL

>>I've seen it said that Israel doesn't want peace, but I don't believe that. Israel is crippled by the disproportionate amount of GDP it has to devote to the military. Every time reservists are called up, their economy takes a huge hit.<<

So what's the sense?

>>Personally, I think this is part of a deliberate policy orchestrated by Iran & Syria. Keep the pressure on Israel constantly. Force it to commit economic suicide through military spending whilst at the same time fight a (very effective) propaganda war designed to pressure the West & the US specifically to curtail economic support for Israel.<<

Yeah, but why? The extremists (both sides) - what are they trying to achieve?

>>...outright racist...both sides...the whole thing becomes self-perpetuating<<

That's it, I suppose. Except, look at these people - are they not the *same* race. And on the subject of race: the Israelis and Arabs behave as though they're of different race, but what about the Iranians. They claim to be Persians, not Arabs, don't they? They look like the same race. Isn't the whole thing just the way religions divide people?


warner

>>zionism...This is surely blatant racism, imo. It's saying that God is a racist. (chosen people etc.)<<

If you invented a god, surely it would have to be *your* god -- on your side against all the rest. Otherwise, what would be the point?


3Dotsplus1

You have it!


lil

>>Christians are the fancy pattern around the edges of the same coin.<<




warner

>>God knows who will be saved. But it won't be the arrogant, from my understanding.<<

Do you suppose people will be burning in hell for eternity for the slight (if irritating) "sin" of being arrogant?

Tibley Bobley
>> If you invented a god, surely it would have to be *your* god -- on your side against all the rest. <<

The key here is: "If you invented a God".

Actually, most Christians, Muslims and Jews know very well that they all
believe in the same 'Creator God'.

The problems lie in the fact that:

Jews won't accept that Jesus (PBUH*) & Muhammad (PBUH*) have any 'special significance' ..
Christians won't accept Muhammad (PBUH*) has any 'special significance' ..
Muslims accept all three have significance!

>> Do you suppose people will be burning in hell for eternity for the slight (if irritating) "sin" of being arrogant? <<

Our God is "oft forgiving, most merciful".

But Jews & Muslims (at least) agree that He is also "strict in punishment" ...

* PBUH - Peace be upon Him