h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

You damned literalist, Tal.

'Damned metaphoric literalist', if you please!

Hi Tal,

The Biblical unnamed unwitnessed resurrected dead, or Wigglesworth's unnamed unwitnessed resurrected dead?

And lest we forget the purpose of this thread: Leviticus 19:18 - love thy neighbour as thyself (the best verse from the worst book of the Bible?)

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>Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mathew22:38<

My post 5 from
*Your favourite Bible verses, or ones that seem relevant to you at the moment.* thread

So how does Leviticus relate to Mathew?

Jesus is quoting from the scriptures.

(He seems to have a 'differently correct' understanding of the Ten Commandments. Here he appears to be saying this is the second of the Ten Commandments (it's not one at all). In Matthew 19:18 he manages a more impressive 5/10, but still incorrectly includes the Golden Rule.)

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I think it's very heart warming that plenty of atheists are enjoying contributing here, as well as theists.

The bible really is pretty dammed brilliant...

<< http://www.gotquestions.org/temple-veil-torn.html)>>
That's a brilliant article, Effers...

Pastors at the church I am currently attending, have spoken about exactly this, recently... and you've got it exactly right, it's all about enabling people to come directly into God's prescence...

Vicky

Those pastors sound like a right barrel of laughs..

I wonder what they'd make of me and my cult of the blackbird?

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They're young and so teeth-achingly earnest, it's sweet... Being an Open Brethren chapel, they don't have pastors as such, but several people speak on a rostered system. Believe it or not, until I heard Ian make that point about the veil of the temple, I'd never really got it before, and then by a wonderful coincidence, you post that article!

You'd be welcome, until you started to assert the primacy of the Blackbird, then you'd be earnestly invited to get your own premises for starting your cult.. .

Yes Vicky they do sound sweet. It's interesting to hear you talk about the church you go to; I've not heard you mention about your church before.

This Ian is right on my wavelength then..(well not entirely but you know what I mean).

That phrase about the veil of the temple being torn in twain, has always fascinated me since studying the synoptics at school. It sounds so dramatic, and I've always visualised this ripping apart thing, and the sound of it..

And it was good to learn what it signifies in a religious context. We probably learnt what it meant at school, but I'd forgotten.

Do you sing hymns? I've mentioned before how much I enjoyed that in assembly in the morning at school. Looking back if I'm honest, I did really enjoy all that religious stuff in some ways, we did before the brain stuff of lessons began, for the emotional ritual of it, even the Lord's prayer thing, that we all mumbled, with our heads bowed, eyes closed and hands together...

It's a new discovery, even though it's right up the road! Before that we went to a couple of others, so I am still getting to know Rossgrove as it's called.

We sing hymns and some newer music, it's all lovely! (I sing *very* softly, because as my mother used to point out, I haven't A Voice.)

I remember in school assemblies, our new principal, Mrs Somerville, reciting the Lords Prayer differently from the rest of the teachers and the previous principal. When I asked our form teacher, I learned that it was because she was a Catholic (or cattle-tick as we called them then) and they leave off the last two lines - from their point of view, we add them! There were only about three teachers who really took it seriously, and meant it, Mrs Somerville was one of them.

We loved her - mostly because the previous principal had been encouraged to retire with a world trip, by the board, because she was barking, and ran the school like a prison camp... Mrs Somerville was a wonderful contrast.

Vicky

No wonder you liked her, if she got rid of the prison camp atmosphere..

My grammar was typically British Protestant orientated. Whilst we were having our big proper assembly in the main hall, around 20 Catholics did their thing in a little classroom we could see through the window. We did very much view them as second class citizens, without really knowing why?

Everyday someone had to read in Assembly stuff from the bible up on the stage to around 6 or 700 girls from all around our bit of the county. When it was my turn, I was so arrogant to assume I didn't need to rehearse. But when it came to it, I actually panicked in the middle of what I was reading; lost my place. There was this awful silence for around 15 seconds. I could sense everyone shuffling. It had never happened before.. And eventually I just picked on some other bit of the bible to carry on reading, that had no connection to the first bit. It went down in folklore in the school.

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It would! Congratulations on a great save!

I was always the one picked to read stuff out, as my Mum had been an actress and had taught me basics of voice projection - much more valuable than the 'elocution' the richer girls went to... I remember reading a story by Katherine Mansfield story (The Fly), to the class, and corpsing when I got to the line "You artful little b-----"... The teacher finished it totally, by claiming he'd take bets on whether I'd recover my composure! I never did of course...

Our school assemblies were the only time we had religion at school. (The Education Act specifically says "free, secular and compulsory", which is something I wholeheartedly approve!) The previous principal, the Commandant, made attendance and lip-service, into tests of obedience, and obeisance (to her.) Mrs S., was much wiser, and never made an issue of it, as assemblies technically took place before school started, but also incorporated the kind of notices schools have, you know, the sort of thing like "there will be a school camp at the end of term"... Anyone who was late would miss these notices but as the form teacher would repeat them, it was no biggie.

Vicky

That's quite interesting what you say about the different set up in NZ. I have mixed feelings about having a state established church. It keeps things more wishy washy, which I like. Many people just associate it with something you see on Songs of Praise on the Beeb on a sunday, or something you see ocasionally on telly like after 9/11. And you see this thing with the Prime Minister and the Queen. The service ends with everyone singing the National Anthem. Schools like mine and private schools still have that old fashioned CofE thing. And at school we studied the synoptics and Acts very much as academic subjects. It keeps it kind of like something in the background that you once did a bit of at school like any other subject.

I'm coming around more to the opinion of keeping it like that, ironically. Why you advocate your system. I'm not sure what I really think though.

And I certainly don't want to get into an argument about it. But it's quite interesting to think about. I can see pros and cons for both sides. (Yes even I can be a fence sitting liberal sometimes, ). But for now I'm for keeping state and church combined, for purely *pragmatic* reasons, of my own. But I understand you are coming at it from another direction.

The advantage of our system, especially in terms of education, as I see it, is that people aren't "inoculated by a weak strain" as someone once put it, and that everyone, atheist, Hindu, Jew or Christian, is equal in society and more importantly in school... (you know what fiendishly conformist beings school children can be!)

We had a heap of Indian girls in our street and our school, and my Mum's best friend who she'd known since they were 3 years old (!) was a Jewish woman who'd "converted" when she married a Dallie (a person whose forebears came from Dalmatia, in the former Yugoslavia I believe.)

We never gave their ethnicity or their parents' religion much thought (as kids don't.)

On Fantascienza in the Off-Topic section, there are always complaints about the 8% Italians pay in their taxes to the church - though when I asked for clarification about that, a guy living in Sweden, and so not subject to it as far as I know, explained that you can designate it to go to the Waldenses (by which they mean Protestants in general.. ) or to social services..)I don't know how widespread this tithe to the church idea is in Europe, or if it applies to the UK... But it seems to me that the very essence of religion *must* be freedom, to be involved or not, as the people choose.

On the other hand you make a good case for an Established church... << It keeps things more wishy washy, which I like. >>

That's a very good point! Wishy washy is peaceful...

No wishy washy is mostly not good. I can't believe I used such a phrase. 99% of time it's *not* in my phraseology, as you know.

It's just because there's some pretty nasty born agains around here, and it worries me that their influence may increase with less inoculation of the weak strain as you put it. I like innoculation with the weak strain when it comes to christianity. I know we disagree on this. But you have to respect that I've had a few unpleasant experiences from these people. Really nasty stuff. So maybe you can understand where I'm coming from. I've certainly experienced what innoculation with the strong strain can be like. I hope you will respect me saying that because it can be truly hurtful.

If I had my way I'd deal with them in the opposite from cheek turning stuff, if you get my drift. Yes so the nearest I can get to cheek turning is wishy washy. Even if it goes right against my nature.

I know what you mean, I've had some misunderstandings with some of the more fundamental type Christians.. such as being told I *can't* be a Christian, because I read science fiction (!), or because I am a solo mother.

A lot of people think it's all about rules, but to me, it's really not!

I just discovered this video, it's a gem!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLrr8SnYi6w&feature=related

Yay, it works! (First time I've linked to youtube, having decided to try looking at them from work, on account of not having enough (work, that is... )

Vicky

1 Timothy, 5:23:-

"Drink not only water, but take also a little wine for thy stomach's sake".

I love this verse.(puts on tele-evangelist voice) "Friends, we are here being TOLD by the Almighty God to go out and have a bevvy. Now he is not ADVISING us. He is not hinting that it might just be a good idea. This is the word of the LARD, Prize the Lard, who is using the IMPERATIVE case and TELLING us to go out there and drink the precious life-giving alcohol in His name. Remember you saw it here first and friends - don't clap, jist throw money!"

And when you think about it, it also renders the entire Methodist and Presbyterian churches un-scriptural and therefore unGodly in His sight, doesn't it? You cannot have a religious doctrine founded on ideas of abstinence from alcohol as God has made it very clear things don't work this way. (As comedian Mike Harding pointed out, if you get hammered on a Saturday night, you tend to put more onto the collection plate on a Sunday. Drinkers are more generous. "The richest church for miles around round our way were t'Irish, St Brendan The Occassionally Upright"...)

(Take the wedding at Cana when the drink ran dry. Who noticed? Why, the blessed Virgin Mary herself. And are we not told that She had a quiet word with her eldest, who then did indeed reconnect the supply? From this, we can infer that She quite liked a drink, which makes her OK by me.)

And who else but the French would choose the thinly veiled pagan god of drink Dionysus as their patron saint... with their breathtaking knack for bending the rules to suit themselves, the satyr Dionysus became the Christian Saint Denis and patron of the nation...

There are actually quite a few guys called Dionysius, Biblical and otherwise, and only one of them is a God.

Got to be Genesis 19:8.

Lot, entertaining a couple of angels, is disturbed by a crowd of rapists at his door who want their wicked way with his visitors. So Lot, the just and righteous god-fearing dude that he is...

... tells them not to rape these two guy, but to rape his two virginal daughters instead.

Gotta love the guy.

SoRB