h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

With suicide, it's really important to take into account biased perceptions. Yes, *we* see the harm caused to everyone else, but people who commit suicide often sincerely believe that others will be better off without them. I really don't see how you could justify calling that "selfish", since so much of selfishness revolves around perception and intent.

"And if talking about it makes people who do it feel uncomfortable or offended - good. Perhaps you now have some tiny inkling of what you're inflicting on others with your choices."

That is the one of the most feeble, wretched and pathetic excuses for posting material that causes self-harming behaviour I’ve seen.

What you posted Hoovooloo wasn't simply another example of your usual attempts to offend and belittle those you consider yourself superior to though was it?
It was you opining that most suicide attempts are not genuine, which is not a valid opinion, but is one that will upset and be harmful to the vulnerable. It was you supporting the benefits of a fascistic doctrine, of removing those you consider to "inadequates" from society through the device of executions.

"One of the things I did in the post that was hidden was express disgust at this double standard. My opinion is unchanged, indeed, somewhat reinforced, by the comments and actions which followed."

No you didn't. What you did was accuse those in mental anguish of being histrionic inadequates that deserve to die. And when someone stands up to your shallow damaging, prejudice and ignorance you try to demonise it it and only become more entrenched in your self-righteous verbosity. You clearly have set up a myth in your mind that however invalid it is shown to be you cannot let go of it.

I hope you aren't such a hypocrite as to not kill yourself when you stop being a productive member of the market.

"It was you opining that most suicide attempts are not genuine, which is not a valid opinion,"

I wrote a long and personal response to this, then thought better of it.

My opinion is as valid as yours, whether you like or agree with it or not. It is based on rational logic - can you say the same for yours?

The logic is simply this: if you REALLY want to die, there are certain ways. To NOT employ those methods is to demonstrate a reluctance, an uncertainty, a lack of conviction. In short, to "attempt suicide" by some method that can fail is to show that you intend NOT to die. Therefore the phrase "attempted suicide" is something of an oxymoron.

Unless... you're a moron. It occurs to me that there also exist certain methods of murder - methods guaranteed to kill the target. That people are convicted all the time of "attempted murder" speaks more of idiocy and incompetence than lack of certainty of intent.

So, in fact, I come around to your position, and find I do actually agree with you. It depresses me to admit it, but yes, you're right - there really are people in the world who are so unredeemably stupid that they can really, honestly want to die, but be too dumb to be capable of accomplishing even that simple task. I suppose we should pity them.

"[your opinion] is one that will upset and be harmful to the vulnerable."

Like I said - good.

"I hope you aren't such a hypocrite as to not kill yourself when you stop being a productive member of the market."



What an odd pronouncement. I have in fact been considering suicide for a couple of months for reasons that are none of your business. It is, however, unrelated to my value as an economically productive unit. It seems strange that *I* have been the one talking about the emotional fallout of suicide "attempts", and you - the self-righteous one - who is implying that being non-productive is reason enough to die.

Funny how things turn out.

H.

Stealth, how does Hoovooloo ever come across as 'superior'?

Hoo, why the f**k would you ever consider suicide?

Why would anybody? I've never understood this. I've been places where the 'happy despatch' might have seemed a relief. But I always stuck it out until the next day - and the next day always had some hope left in it.

There is *always* tomorrow. Goddammit.


az

"why the f**k would you ever consider suicide?"

I have a distinct memory of using the phrase "reasons that are none of your business". And indeed, on rereading my last post, there it is.

H.

Yeah well, so sue me.

Just asking in spite of that.

It still makes no sense to me.


az

I would just like to say, for goodness sake stay away from paracetamol! By the time you start to feel a bit rough, up to a day after you've taken the pills, you've probably already wrecked your liver and even without treatment will take several more agony-filled days to slowly die. I have no idea why so many people think this is the way to do it, a few days working in any hopital would soon shock them out of that idea. Samaritans: 0845 7909090

I'm going to quickly jump in before the flame war starts.


As someone who has had to help friends and relatives through the anguish that follows the loss of someone to suicide, I can agree with some of what Hoo says. There was a number of times when I thought (of someone whos commited suicide); "The ungrateful, selfish b*stard, if only he knew the pain he's caused."

On the other hand, as someone who has come close to ending my life (as the result of bullying). I can sympathize with those that have considered suicide.

Its a difficult one to balance. I think the problem is that everyone's case is different, and we are trying to apply some big umbrella theory to cover everyone. Which will probably do more harm than good.

My dad killed himself slowly over 20 years with drink, and punished me aggregiously for it. I continue to fight my own problems, and lapse regularly into serious difficulty.

Where do you want to lay the blame, if I decide to end it? The one whose selfishness caused this pain, or the one whose pain is so selfish?

There's no room for blame in such a generations-spanning business as familial depression. Either you give a f**k or you don't.

Not sure I've ever misspelt a word so ... egregiously.

I'm not sure what I intended to contribute now, it seems pointless somehow.

I have enough experience someone who can feel very suicidal for reasons in his history and I know sometimes he genuinely feels he does drag on me and does more harm than good, so perhaps I would be better off without him in his logic. People who are very depressed dont think the same way, they have a twisted logic we cant necessarily understand. Sorry for stating the obvious/ things people already said I'm getting my bearings a little to work out what I wanted to say

Why would anybody? In my friends case - because hes been hurt so much he cant see past that when he gets upset, and he wants to stop hurting and stop dragging everyone else. He weighs the pros and cons in his head and doesnt see how many people do care and would be hurt even more by him doing this. Hes been in hospital a few times himself.

As for blame I think that is hard to place, in my case I can blame the people who hurt my friend originally and caused his depression, although to argue this to the full they probably have mental issues themselves that cause them to be sick and twisted, but I'm too tired to argue that far now. In my eyes they knew what they were doing, and I'll lay the blame there, perhaps we all need someone to blame

sorry for the long post

~Jack

I did actually consider removing myself a few years ago (nice way to put it, no?). The trouble was at the time the only methods I had at my limited disposal were either using the old steam and knife, or to jump off a terribly high thing called a ladder. At this point I found myself giggling insanely for I knew instinctively that these were two quite stupid methods of suicide because both had a strong possibility of failure and would leave rather a mess.
I pictured the look my mother would have if and when she found me and it was not a look of grief she had, but one of exasperation because of yet another mess of mine she had to clean up. This caused hysterics to me, and since then I have not even contemplated the matter because life is too funny to pass up on.
Incidentally I have also nearly died 5 times, through various methods such as falling off a cliff and having a shoplifter with a gun get terribly friendly with me. After each time I didnt beat myself up because of what I did or didnt do, I merely found each experience a morbidly funny learning curve. Seems to have worked.

I've watched a few people giggling insanely at similar things, to be honest it frightenes me a little

I have been lurking here, because as some people might know, the subject has immediate relevance for me that I never thought it would...
In my brother's case, I knew he suffered from depression, but there was so much I didn't know beyond that. I've since learned that he said things to his girlfriend that made her concerned enough to ask him to seek help - and he refused adamantly! (Because of contact a member of our family had had with mental health teams, which probably, freaked him out.) I think that the early deaths of our parents and our brother, and the fact that he at 18 years old, had to look after our mother and was there when she was hospitalised and died, had a very great effect on him. That's all I know - other than that I still feel so *angry* and it's been 8 months.

'Angry' is often the flip side of hurt. It's only been eight months, Della. You may not ever understand it all, as to *why* this happened, but the hurt and anger will subside. It will.



az

Thanks, azahar... The anger is very disconcerting, as I don't remember being angry with him when he was alive more than once - back in 1982! I even had a nightmare back in July, that he was on the phone telling me that he had done what was best for us all - we argued, and then he was there with me, actually hitting me! (Something he never ever did.)
The funny thing is, the dream told me that I knew he thought he *was* doing the right thing! (He was always very concerned with doing what was right..)

"My opinion is as valid as yours, whether you like or agree with it or not. It is based on rational logic - can you say the same for yours?"

You "opinion" is not based on rational logic, don't flatter yourself, your opinion is based on your own prejudiced and baseless assumptions.

People use overdoses and slit wrists to try and kill themselves because they want to die a non-violent death and guns aren't always that readily available to most.

Why do you feel that anyone that doesn't think like you or share your view of things is a "moron" or "unredeemably stupid"? What about you dost make you think you are the superior human being to these people both intellectually and all other respects?

"Like I said - good."

You show yourself to not be their superior with that sentiment. You are simply an antisocial, someone that has to belittle and hurt others in order to give yourself false sense of supremacy. Someone without remorse for the harm you do to other or the consequences of your bias. You have a superficial wit that you use to get away with your repugnant pronouncements.

“What an odd pronouncement. I have in fact been considering suicide for a couple of months for reasons that are none of your business. It is, however, unrelated to my value as an economically productive unit. It seems strange that *I* have been the one talking about the emotional fallout of suicide "attempts", and you - the self-righteous one - who is implying that being non-productive is reason enough to die.”

You haven’t been talking of the emotional fallout of suicide attempt in any respect other than as a justification for your fascistic views on how deal with mentally ill. What you refer to, as my “pronouncement” was simply the logical extension of the rational your so-called “rational logic”.

I repeat this truth lest some think had thought it obvious.
It is not.

>> ...no one who would wish continued illness on another person should be working in the healthcare field to begin with. <<


I wish there really was some way to truthfully assess the motivations of everyone who chooses a career in healthcare. Some do it to meet doctors, some to meet nurses, but at some level most believe they do care. At first.

But all this is before they actually enter the field in a practical way and get to see what it's really like. At which point, overworked and weary, they begin rationing care and setting up priority systems.

Given current attitudes it would be easy to believe it is OK to refuse help for those addicted to nicotine. But an addict is an addict is an addict. In a universal healthcare system edveryone should get help when they want it or need it.

But in a free enterprise system of course the only motivation is money. Simply wishing more people got sick or injured isn't enough so the only way to increase profits is to raise prices or to expand the business by creating new diseases and more costly cures . The true entrepeneur has to create a demand for his product or service.

The present demand for flu shots is a perfect example. In a world already trembling with fear of terrorism it is very easy to sell flu shots. And viagra. And nicotine patches. And dozens of new drugs with all sorts of harmful side effects that will require additional costly treatment.

~jwf~

>> ..life is too funny to pass up..<<


Indeed it is. But, as you've witnessed, the cosmic joke is usually only visible from the end of one's rope.

~jwf~

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