h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Maybe that's because this country is run by tw@ts.
They don't understand the difference between corporal punishment and abuse, so have outlawed the first thus leaving the country with no effective option to deter mindless thugs who, as someone here correctly observed, need a slap.

All the preferred "deterrants" are frankly laughable to these yobs. "If you throw stones at those firemen you could get an ASBO" - ooh, scary.

Attacks on firefighters provoke a particular kind of anger among the law abiding majority. They are public servants - they serve the community and are willing to undertake dangerous work in order to save lives and property. Paramedics and health staff are similar, but cannot be thought of as putting their lives at risk, and attitudes to the police are rather more ambivalent and so provoke less anger unless the incident is very serious. But with firefighters, it's straightforward - they put out fires and save lives and property. What's not to admire?

In other words, attacking firefighters is a particularly low, anti-social, nasty, pointless, nihilistic thing to do, and that's why it inspires such anger in people (see the title of this thread for an example). We, the law abiding majority, would *never* do anything like that. Even those of us with chequered pasts might have considered the fire brigade and paramedics as off limits.

So why do some people do it?

One option is just to dismiss them all as scum and call for draconian punishments. They're bad people, with bad parents. They do it because they're scum, and should be shot/beaten/deported/set alight.

Another option is to try to understand why this is happening. Note that trying to understand why something is happening is not the same as forgiving it, or ignoring it, or belittling it, or condoning it. If my friend starts punching me in the face one day for no clear reason, me trying to find out what he's hitting me isn't the same as excusing him for doing it.

I don't know why people are attacking firefighters and behaving in similar antisocial ways, but I have a possible theory. The reason that attacks on firefighters provokes such rage in the law abiding majority is that they are straightforwardly a force for good in society - they protect *our* lives and *our* property. *Our* emergency services funded by *our* taxes - a sign of our collective commitment to common safety.

But perhaps the people doing this (and lots of people who *aren't* doing this) don't feel part of that collective - what for us is *ours* doesn't feel like *ours* to them - it feels like *theirs*. Something external, not something that they are a part of. And therefore something they feel no loyalty or respect for.

This is sometimes called alienation. It's difficult to explain or to understand. But many people have felt alienated at some time or another. Perhaps at work, where once you felt loyal to the company and felt sympathy for its aims and objectives and shared in them. If your loyalty is betrayed, or you're mistreated, or you lose confidence in management, then goodwill evaporates. It's no longer *your* company, but *theirs*. You'll no longer go that extra mile, but do the absolute minimum necessary because it's no longer got anything to do with you, and your prospects are no longer tied to the company's.

It's bad enough feeling that way at work, but what if you felt that way about society as a whole?

This doesn't excuse attacks on firefighters - there are plenty of people who feel this way about society but who don't behave like that. But I do think that this kind of thing is a symptom of a deeper malaise - that there are places in the UK now which are disenfranchised and alienated, that don't feel part of mainstream society and don't feel that they have any share in its success.

And that's worrying.

More or less what I was trying to get at yesterday but put much better.

from me too. A post to make you think.

Very good post

<>

I'm baffled by your last post, WG. Presumably you did actually read my whole post. I have to say I regard using selective quotation in that way as rather poor form.

If you have a point to make, use your own words, please, and make it in a form that constitutes an argument that people can engage with.

Those are the bits we all liked.

Don't backtrack now.

It's not the bit I liked.

WG, you've misquoted Otto badly, taking his words completely out of context and thus changing the meaning and intent of what was said.

Oh, and in case it wasn't already obvious, that kind of thing goes down badly here.

bear with me on this.....

i work for the prison service

at work a prison officer has the powers of a constable and so can arrest people, detain them against thier will etc.

if this power was given to fire fighters they then would pe able to retaliate in an apropriate manner to any attack on them, arrest perps and turn them over to the police without any talk about sue-ing

I was also talking about this today..

My suggestion was that there are so many children today who are not exposed to positive male role models. Policemen today are viewed as the enemy, through music and games rather than a figure of respect. Local role models are missing, grocers, butchers, and other shopkeepers, respected members of the local community. There replacements are not seen as figures of respect. Supermarket workers are seen as minimum wage fodder, and with the emphasis on possesions there is little attraction to working hard for low wages.

Of course in many cases they are also minus a father figure. Instead of achievable local role models they are presented with 'fame' through reality television, and encouraged to ape the behaviour of sporting 'heroes' who frequently are unable to coherently express themselves.

To their way of thinking authority figures are there to keep them in their place, and striking out at them is their way of expressing the frustrations they are incapable of vocalising.

Very good point.

A lot of it stems from the breakdown in the family unit. Many live in broken homes, for example. We are rapidly losing our community ethics and morals.

Some would say that organised religion helps in situations like these.

*Borrow's Don's tin helmet*

I don't want firefighters chasing yobs. I want them fighting fires. It's what they trained for. The police should (and I believe, mostly do) attend every emergency call. It wouldn't hurt to put CCTV & a Mosquito device on fire engines.

As to declining moral standards - that comes from the top. Our politicians are breathtakingly corrupt, lying, adulterous swine. What kind of example is that to set? I believe being elected to represent thousands of people is a priviledge which brings responsibilities.

Why should young people abide by the law when politicians brazenly flout the law or change it to suit themselves? Why should *anybody*?

Execute the whole sorry mess of them and put the Queen in charge for a few years. I trust her far more than any politician.

>> Our politicians are breathtakingly corrupt, lying, adulterous swine<<

Yeah, but who voted them in?

Not the young yobbos presumably

Given the level of voter apathy in the UK, I wouldn't be surprised if they voted themselves in.

Not far off the mark Psycorps, given the fact that electoral fraud in the UK is so bad we have to have EU observers in to monitor our elections now. A Judge described Birmingham as worse than a banana republic.

I can't remember which message board it was (might have been here), but a couple of years ago, someone who worked for one of the parties during an election dished the dirt on the shenanigans all parties get up to. It was pretty shocking.

Thanks, nice to go to bed on a good laugh.