h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ed, vicky used 'objective' and I quoted her.

Do keep up.

Fairy nuff. Yeah...a Goodness Meter would be an interesting concept.

*But*...still speaking up for Vicky...isn't she talking about things that are so near-as-damnit Absolutes in human terms as to not quibble over subjsctivity/ objectivity? Some aspects of behaviour - eg sexual taste - we can agree are entirely subjective. But in others we don't allow subjectivity; 'Well, I personally don't see anything wrong with rape'. We treat the wrong as though it were objective. We measure it against a statute.

(Not against Godly Morality or any some such, of course. That's a preposterous notion.)

<< isn't she talking about things that are so near-as-damnit Absolutes in human terms as to not quibble over subjsctivity/ objectivity? >>


I agree. But we're all the same species, our thought processes work in the same ways basically. Chimps do something akin to rape. Your mob would shag a hole in the ground if there weren't other bonobos about. If we thought in a lionesque manner, there'd be nothing wrong with killing babies, as long as *we* weren't the father.

So what's that got to do with the price of fish? We have universal standards, but they're only universal to our species.

Sorry if I freaked everybody out with my recent postings.

Gif

Yes I think I did have a moral sense. I think you and most people do.

However, look at some of the monsters in the news: child abusers, rapists, etc, they were human beings once! They probably had a moral sense once. But some principle, other than the 'milk of human kindness', took over their personalities and sent them down a dark, lonely, disturbed pathway that none of us would choose. How did it happen?

Mikey2

>>But some principle, other than the 'milk of human kindness', took over their personalities and sent them down a dark, lonely, disturbed pathway that none of us would choose.

Doesn't the language of 'taking over' and 'sending down' shift the focus off the choices that these individuals have made? The Dark Forces aren't separate to the person; they're part of them.

(Same with goodness. God doesn't do good; people do.)

Hi Mar,

Man, that is a ******* scary video! I love the bit where the guy in the blue top finds the others kissing in the park and gives them a lecture (sounding just like a 'Teach Yourself Spanish' tape) and they just nod, instead of thumping the perv

Did you see:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=lFpFs4Xm0Lk&feature=related

(I can't get sound but I think the idea is clear.)

Gif

Hi Ed,

>Now don't all fall off your chairs, but...I have to say that I somewhat agree with Vicky on:

><>

>>>Murder, rape, robbery, fraud, cheating on one's partner, - bad.

Actually, the Bible says... aw, never mind, I'm boring *myself* now!

Gif

Hi Mikey,

>look at some of the monsters in the news: child abusers, rapists, etc, they were human beings once! They probably had a moral sense once. But some principle, other than the 'milk of human kindness', took over their personalities and sent them down a dark, lonely, disturbed pathway that none of us would choose. How did it happen?

I don't know. I suspect it was complex; I also suspect that most of them do not regard themselves as evil. Are you suggesting that these people's actions have something to do with belief in a deity?

Gif

Not talking as a religious person here...I'm always amazed when I consider the potential for good and evil in individual people.

Contrary to my recent postings, I do happen to believe the best of people I meet. If you really believe the best in people, that's how you bring out the best in them. On the same token, constant criticism by a parent can raise a child with a bad attitude.

mikey2

Gif

<>

No, I'm trying to justify my previous postings!!

mikey2

Yes, bad circumstances can lead to bad decisions. Only today I met a delightful young man who'd found himself, through no fault of his own, born into a horrible life. His reaction to this was to make it even worse. But now...he's realised where this was heading and has made some brave decisions to sort himself out.

But I still don't see where god comes into this kind of thing.

Classic Radio 1 Newsbeat interview with Johnny Rotten.
'Mr Rotten - you say that life is awful and dirty and horrible...So what are you going to do about it?'
' I'm going to make it worse.'

Class!

I'd just like to mention further to the monsters and child abusers that very often in the western world these monsters claim to be Christian. I'm thinking specifically of the recent case of the US parents who prayed over their diabetic daughter rather than seeking medical attention before she died in agony over the course of a few months, and of the sheriff in the case who didn't see any evidence of abuse and also, more recently, the ongoing case of religious child sex slave ring in Texas.

Sorry, people will do good or evil regardless of their faith or lack of it. One very important thing to consider, however, is that people who claim faith also can give god the credit for good actions and claim the devil made them do it if they screw up someone's life. Those without faith *must* take responsibility for themselves, good and bad.

There was another similar case reported last week, from Oregon. But in that case the parents were arrested.

>>However, look at some of the monsters in the news: child abusers, rapists, etc, they were human beings once! They probably had a moral sense once. But some principle, other than the 'milk of human kindness', took over their personalities and sent them down a dark, lonely, disturbed pathway that none of us would choose. How did it happen?<<



Seriously, I suspect most of the really aberrant, abhorrent and downright evil behaviour is associated at some level with neural dysfunction.

eg "the brain of a psychopath may function and process information differently from those of non-psychopaths" http://www.oregoncounseling.org/Handouts/PsychopathicPersonality.htm

Thanks to Ripley's, Phineas Gage is perhaps the most famous documented example of the intimate connection between the physical brain and the personality.

There are far more subtle, intriguing and downright weird examples of this relationship, in the clinical records, and supporting evidence from experimental data.

>>How did it happen?<<

Brain trauma, genetic defect, dysfunctional social environment -- all good aetiological candidates.

>>Seriously, I suspect most of the really aberrant, abhorrent and downright evil behaviour is associated at some level with neural dysfunction.

We could test it. Brain scans of Rwandan Hutus? Of Ugandan child soldiers?

But it depends what you mean. As you know from another thread, human brains are auto-malleable. Do you mean that neural dysfunction might arise from, eg, social environment? We observe that at various times in history, large proportions of various populations have become evil. Are you proposing that they have become neurally dysfunctional?

It also depends on what you mean by 'dysfunctional'. The desire to dismember people with a large knife might normally be classed as dysfunctional but is encouraged amongst the Gurkha Rifles.

You'll get me started on Social Deviency Theory next. This is what happens when you talk to comeone who's typed up his wife's criminology MA thesis.

You'll get me started on Social Devi*A*ncy Theory next. This is what happens when you talk to *S*omeone who's typed up his wife's criminology MA thesis.

Perhaps your spell-checker was busy with your wife's thesis.

Dysfunction is relative, yes. Typically an individual is dysfunctional only in relationship to the social environment, to the detriment of the individual, the society, or both

>>Do you mean that neural dysfunction might arise from, e.g., social environment?<<

I think social environment has a profound influence on neural development, pathological or otherwise.

>>We observe that at various times in history, large proportions of various populations have become evil. Are you proposing that they have become neurally dysfunctional?<<

I doubt many in those 'evil' populations would consider themselves, or their fellows, dysfunctional.
Individual members of a group of humans tend to follow the directives of their social group, be it the Gurhkas or the Girl Guides.
Behaviours that fall within the group's limits and expectations are perfectly acceptable, and often compulsory, within the group.
I would expect mostly normal brain-scans from such individuals.

It could be argued that certain events, such as the self-destructive Jones town and Heaven's Gate suicides, demonstrate lethally dysfunctional group behaviour, but I think that much of the evil in our world, the horrors of war, genocide, suicide bombers etc stems from even more lethal ideologies that capitalize on the evolved primate capacity for male bonded coalitionary violence.

Pathological, yes, and ultimately dysfunctional, it could be argued, but not psychopathological.