h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>.One more, again a terribly simple question of straightforward fact: when Jesus was on the cross, what did the soldiers give him to drink?<< according to the gospels of matthew, mark and john he was given sour wine.


i believe animals were created first. science and genesis 1 agrees with this.

genesis 2 then goes on to explain how humans were made to be in a relationship and the only relationships which are good are between men and women and between humankind and God.

Just to give you an update on my daughter and her reaction to the video and talk

She is now officialy a vegetarian. Both of my parents and sister have been vegetarians for the past 30 years...I was the only meat eater and now with my daughters switch over I think I too will join her.

Reading back these posts I realised its not only children who need educating about where meat comes from. I too as an adult in my 40's was conveniently ignorant about the whole cruelty aspect. As someone mentioned earlier, meat dosnt resemble dead animals when its packaged up...I have never been able to eat certain meat products, Tongue, brain etc and never eaten whole fish, prawns etc as where so blatantly once living...but a sausage dosnt look like a pig does it?

I need to read up on nutritionaly balanced diets for vegetarian teens to ensure my daughter dosnt lose out on her Iron and other nutrients.

Jennyx

i think you have made a good decision as has your daughter.

im afraid i still eat meat as a student its a good source of protein and i dont physically have the time to change my diet from what my parents brought me up with. i will be changing aftre uni though.

i will continue for now eating meat as long as i can continue to seperate it from being an animal. i decided a long time ago i wouldnt eat animals and im quite happy having meat as long as i dont connect the two.

thi thread has reminded me of the reasons why i thought about becoming vegetarian.

Apologies for being away over the weekend, but in response to posts 15 and 16:

Labels such as organic and free-range are just a fairly loose collection of minimum standards covering animal welfare, amongst other things. "Organic" for example doesn't really mean naturally grown, it just limits the types of pesticides, fertilisers etc you can use, and sets minimum levels for the treatment of livestock.

Likewise free-range obviously doesn't mean the birds are free to explore the whole farm, it just specifies that they must be given a certain minimum area outside to exercise in addition to their coop.

I have the Defra compendium of organic standards here. It states that a "fattening poultry" in fixed housing must be packed no more than 10 birds per square metre (6 for laying hens), and must have access to an outside run of 4m^2 per bird, in rotation, plus some other stuff.

Not sure how the standards actually compare, but will return when I've found out.

"according to the gospels of matthew, mark and john he was given sour wine"



Like I say - scratch a Christian, and find someone making up their own Bible.

Now, if one actually READS a Bible, rather than simply making stuff up, what do we find?

Matthew 27:34 - "They gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall."

Mark 15:23 - "They gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh."

Luke 23:36 - "And the soldiers mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar."

John 19:29 - "Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth"

So, four gospels, four different sets of liquids. None of them, interestingly, not one, "sour wine".

Clearly nicky you've made your choice about which bits you believe, and which bits you feel the need to explain away. If you actually READ the accounts of creation in Genesis, they are both very, very clear on the order of creation. Genesis 1 is, as you say, extremely clear that animals came first. Genesis 2, in verse 18-19, is equally clear that man came first: "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;". Not sure how that could be any clearer, really.

I don't have any problem with you picking and choosing which bits of Christianity you believe, and which bits you don't, really. It seems you do, though. Best of luck with that.

SoRB

"i decided a long time ago i wouldnt eat animals and im quite happy having meat as long as i dont connect the two..."

Christian doublethink at it finest.

SoRB

i made sure before answering your question on what they gave him to drink i had it from the source.

i thought it was sour wine but i made sure the accounts agreed. i have an ESV translation which is the most accurate translation into english as it is a literal translation.

please find below the links to the chapters in all 4 gospels which talk about Jesus death. please note that all four give Jesus sour wine.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=27&version=47&context=chapter

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=15&version=47&context=chapter

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=23&version=47&context=chapter

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&version=47&context=chapter

if you thought that all four gospels provide a different liquid then please tell me what translation you are using to make sure it is a reliable one.

the bible we use is a translation from hebrew and sometimes you find objects or liquids which we no long use. sour wine is sometimes refered to as vinegar as that is the closest thing we know of to compare. like i said earlier the ESv is a literal translation which i why they use sour wine.

But which came first?
The ability to repose in comfort between two opposing sets of ideas, or the Christianity?

My cousin (now in her mid 20s) has been vegan since the age of about seven when her school went on a trip to an abbatoir. Fun day out, huh?

sounds like it would be dead boring to me

Crikey, sorry, I realise that I only got half way through the conversation before posting and now it seems to have got a little theological so my post seems very out of place. I'll butt out again...

no feel free to stay on topic ali.

i did point out to sojb earlier that this isnt a theological thread but one to discuss meat

Thanks little miss n.

I don't have much to add but I do wonder whether it would be better to actually see a battery farm or abbatoir itself, horrible as that would be, and form one's own opinions, or to watch a video that would almost certainly be edited with a certain viewpoint in mind.

Topic drift is a fine h2g2 tradition. I used the King Kong, sorry, King James version.

It does seem odd, if you're saying it's a translation issue, that in four attempts to translate what SHOULD be the same word/s, in the KJV, or any version for that matter, four different things came out. But hey, you're the one who says you believe it, not me.

Does your "improved" translation resolve the obvious contradiction about which came first, the man or the animal?

SoRB

(drifting again, it does amuse me to see the various attempts people make at abbreviating my name. In the last couple of days I've seen "SORJ" and now "sojb". I know it's terribly complicated, accurately abbreviating a phrase over THREE WORDS LONG. It's just a shame I don't do something helpful, like, oh, I don't know, signing every post I make here with the correct abbreviation. That would help, wouldn't it? If you were literate...)

SoRB

im sorry i didnt reply to your message so had to remember and i easily get lettes mixed up. it doesnt make me illeterate. the king james version was the first translation into english and is a very unreliable translation. its pretty much been droppd by the whole christian community in favour of more reliable translations. as i said earlier genesis one tells us animals were created first. genesis 2 tells us how man was put here to have a relationship with God. it tells us why we were put here and how sin came about. look at the language of genesis one and 2 and you will note it isnt a historical account. the language is more poetic. it has been carefully written but not as a literal account. before you start tellin me thats picking and choosing there is alot of the bible which needs to be studyed. take the parables of Jesus. they were used to teach us stuff so we need to extract the meaning. you only have to be familar with the bible to know that genesis needs interpretation. have you actually read a reliable source from begginning to end? if you want to continue this discussion then please leave me a message on my ps or leave a message here http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F55607?thread=192835&latest=1 where you will find myself along with people on both sides of this arguement. now, i will again try to bring this thread back to the topic where there is people wanting to discuss. i think visiting a slaughterhouse would be worse. you wold have to deal with the noise and smell as well as the sites. i myself couldnt deal with that, never mind a child. perhaps what is needed is unbiased videos?

"i think visiting a slaughterhouse would be worse. you wold have to deal with the noise and smell as well as the sites. i myself couldnt deal with that, never mind a child. perhaps what is needed is unbiased videos?"

Are you suggesting that the reality of the situation would definately decide people against it? What happened to the robustness of children?

just because children are robust dosnt mean we should take them somewhere wher they can watch, hear and smell animals being slaughtered and then tell them thats what happens to animals before they are packaged and cooked for your tea.

if tv is done correctly it can be shown without children having to actually be there.

thogh to be honest it doesnt do children any harm. i just think its a little unneccasary when it can be done witout them being there to witness

Actually Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall took people along an an abattoir recently, and has in the past raised pigs, which were then slaughtered (thought they wussed out and didn't show all of it) and then butchered. I let my little girl watch it - I felt it was important she knew where sausages come from. She was fine with it at the time, and only recently has decided she doesn't really want to eat meat. It's not the actual slaughtering that gives her any difficulties - she watches nature programs and realises that most animls kill to eat - it's the factory aspects that bug her.

"it doesnt make me illeterate."

SoRB