h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I'm popping up just to echo others' expressions of respect for psychocandy's posting.

PC is my fiance, and I know some of how difficult it was for her to relate that story, especially in such a public forum. Losing a child must be hard enough; having to make that choice, having also just lost its father, seems so much more unbearable. I know some of how it's hurt her to have lost so much so suddenly, but I don't think I will ever truly understand. What I'm sure of is no assertion of Christian morality seeking to condemn her actions could be considered even *remotely* moral in the face of the pain and sadness she felt, and still does.

I'm very proud of you sweetheart, and I look forward to being there so you never have to make such a horrible sacrifice again.

Hi Della ,

Sorry love, just couldn't resist this one:

Hale and Pace,
French and Saunders,
Red Dwarf,
Smith and Jones,
Fry and Laurie and
Alexei Sayle.

A great list indeed. Unfortunately either the performers or the writers were nearly all graduates of the infamous Cambridge Footlights troupe and middle or upper class to a twit. Doesn't make them less funny though. The BBC used this troupe as their primary comedy recruitment zone throughout the 80's and early 90's.

If you want to quote truly working class comedians try:
Billy Connolly,
Mike Harding,
Jasper Carrott,
Lenny Henry and many. many more.

Better luck next time .

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

What about Frank Skinner, another west mids lad, comes from just up the road here and hes a Baggies fan.

Any way its not about that although I would agree that a gender and social issues in comedy would be a good thread. It would be interesting to think about all the attitudes changed or affected by the blatant and more importantly subtle messages in comedy.

When I did my bull in a china shop routine on Della's post earlier I obviously went in a little over the knee. I was not aiming for Della (honestly, although I have in the past, obviously I think that I was justified in doing so, but I can accept that otheres dont see and feel what I feel), but I do accept that I may have taken man and ball although I had no intention of commiting a fowl.

Is that macho stupido enough for ya, only able to talk about debate as analogy of

OK I'll try and make myself clear my onjection to what was coming through from Della is that:

1. No one here contested that women can die during terminations, I thought it hypocrtical and disrespectful of women who die due to illegal abortions to raise that point as a reason for prohibiting legal terminations.

2. I thought raising the argument at all was simply an exercise in creating a straw man to knock down. Like Kea I dont want to be a debate referee but I think we have a right *and responsibility* to call a fowl when we see one.

3. Using stats or anything from a site without first checking it out is very sloppy and should be avoided. I obviously have problems with Texan Fundies but if people say "hey I got this from a fundy site" Im cool with that. We can then asses its value to the debate with some background knowledge. how would you feel if someone bought stats about the concentration camps into a debate from a neo nazi site without declaring the source?

4. There is as we call in sporting circles "a lot of previous" between Della and I which Im sure some of you if not all are aware of. Im pretty certain that Della for her part feels justified in what she posts, I for my part do actually reign in what I post (losing control is what you're opponent wants ) but I do get more than a bit fired up when I see stuff like this.


<< I called Della on her communication style>>
I am sorry, I still don't think there's anything wrong with my conversational style. A much harsher style is considered acceptable for Blinkybadger,

Like so many times Della ignores what she doesnt want to see. Three peole had previously told me off, but that doesnt even get a mention, while there is yet another flat refusal to even accept *any* fault.

Like I say losing it is what the ooponent wants this time like most of them I just

Thank you everyone for being so patient.

one love

Chicken!



Sorry, hjust calling fowl

Alexei Sayle, Hale and Pace, upper class? They may have gone to Cambridge, but are you seriously trying to tell me that Alexei Sayle or Mel Smith are upper class twits? No way.
I do like Jasper Carrott and Lenny Henry, I've nevr heard of Mike Harding and Billy Connolly - fugeddaboudit! The fact remains that Monty Python were about as funny as a wet Sunday in Cambridge New Zealand, or any day in Gisborne (New Zealand). The ones I listed, however, another matter.
Better luck to you too!

hi Krispy,

<>

I agree. And even worse than misplaced moral condemnation is when anti-abortionists don't stop at simply passing judgement on others but also attempt to obstruct others from having a choice. Imagine if psychocandy had not been able to decide for herself because anti-abortionists had somehow managed to get laws changed to suit their own belief system.

az

ps
congratulations on your engagement! I previously have sent congrats to psychocandy on another thead.

nearly all graduates of the infamous Cambridge Footlights troupe and middle or upper class to a twit.

middle or upper.

nearly all

But Id say he was deffinately a twit for bemoaning the rise of absurdist style comics like Reeves and Mortimer in one of his short stories. It made him sound like a bitter old has-been. Which he surely isnt as his continued work in adverts is testament to.

I really do think we need another thread for this.

BB, who are you referring to?

He *did* say that either the writers *or* performers were *mainly* from the Footlights, but not being sure of who the writers were for the ones who didn't write all their own stuff, I'm not sure how much of an opinion I could offer.

Regarding
>> "The converse would be that it's impossible to make a sexist joke, or make a TV programme in a sexist way. I'd disagree with both of those. Should we start a new thread on gender and class in Monty Python sketches, do you think?"

I wasn't trying to suggest that anything goes, simply that someone making fun of someone else can be doing so in the context of a scattergun approach to many elements of society.
Actually, I think a thread on comedy would be a very good idea. I'm just off for a weekend caving now, but will be back on Monday. If someone starts one in the menatime, please let me know.

>> "Sexism is only reversible in the way that you suggest if you think that sexism is about individual oppression only. Which it's not. The whole point of an analysis of gender prejudice (or any prejudice for that matter) is that it is based on who has power, and that has to be looked at in institutional and societal contexts as well as an individual one."

I can see some of that point, however, one problem is that if someone just sees themselves (and other people) as an individuals, and behaves accordingly in an egalitarian manner, by the whole-society-analysis approach, they would seem to be either sexist or not depending simply on what sex they are, and who the anaylsis suggests has the upper hand.
If behaving in a manner that would be entirely acceptable in an equal society is potentially sexist in an unequal one, it rather leaves the question of what one should do. Should the comedian reduce the number of jokes involving women, or not do any at all until society reaches equality.

>> "Why were there no outstanding long running famous groups of women comedians on TV in the 70s? Oh that's right because women just aren't funny (either that or they were all employed on Benny Hill )."

I have some thoughts, but will save them for the other thread.

<>
The point is that the site I googled (I didn't know it was what you call a 'fundie' site) was referring to deaths in *legal* terminations, not illegal ones.

I'm sorry, Della, I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Unless you're saying that all the women you described as having died during legal terminations would have survived illegal ones?

No, of course you're not saying that - you mean they would have survived had they had no termination at all. Which is probably true and quite reasonable. The fact remains, however, that these women wanted a termination and may well have gone on to obtain one illegally, had the legal option not been available to them.

F

"No, of course you're not saying that - you mean they would have survived had they had no termination at all. Which is probably true and quite reasonable"

Well, not necessarily true. We have already discussed the cases where a termination may be necessary because the woman would not survive carrying the child to term and undergoing childbirth. As somebody (kea I think) mentioned, the mortality rates during childbirth are probably higher than those during legal abortions.

If you start looking at the mortality rates for women giving birth in the developing world they start to get very scarily high.

Some figures from the Oxford Handbook of Clinical Specialities:

For first trimester termination of pregnancies, the mortality is 1 in 100000 (page 20).

Worldwide, a woman dies every minute from the effects of pregnancy (page 77).

And finally, as I have once posted before - the word 'abortion' and the term 'termination of pregnancy' are not interchangeable. The latter is a surgical or medical procedure. The former used to refer to terminations back in the 1960s, but is now exclusively used to refer to miscarriages.

I suppose this is a plea, more than anything else for everyone to use the correct terms - otherwise misunderstandings will occur.

Kind regards,

Stay ,
WD

Did you get those the wrong way round WD?

Sorry if I used the word termination incorrectly, I've heard the term used to mean abortion far more recently than the 60's (wasn't around then!).

>Did you get those the wrong way round WD?

No.

It's very clear in the literature now that 'abortion' exclusively means miscarriage - in the book that I referenced, termination of pregnancy is a completely separate chapter referring to the medical/surgical procedure.

Abortion is another completely separate chapter referring exclusively to miscarriage.

Stay ,
WD

ps: I wasn't around during the 60s either - though they do say, if you can remember it, then you weren't really there

I wasn't saying that at all, BB had accused me of posting deaths from illegal abortions to make some point about legal ones, and of being hypocritical by so doing.
<>
And they may well have survived illegal ones! As David Letterman said, it's a crap shoot. Also, they might have been deterred if they couldn't get legal ones, as many women were! (Norma McCorvey, whose assertions were the reason I googled for the statistics in the first place, couldn't get an illegal one, and when she was 'too late' for a legal one, didn't have one at all.)
Aside from anything else, if legal abortion wasn't so easy to get, many women and girls would not succumb to 'polite' pressure from boyfriends and husbands, as much as they do.

so 'abortion' doesn't mean what everyone here uses it to refer to? That *is* confusing! Does it matter if we use the term here? It seems that we all know what we're talking about.

On the other hand, the term 'abortion' has lots of baggage so maybe it would be better to use 'termination of pregnancy'.

Mind you, it is 16 extra keystrokes

<>
Effects of pregnancy. That includes, I am assuming, miscarriage, stillbirth, malnutrition complicated by pregancy etc. Plus, I am also assuming, induced abortion! (Also an effect of pregnancy..)
That's not really a comparison...

>so 'abortion' doesn't mean what everyone here uses it to refer to? That *is* confusing! Does it matter if we use the term here? It seems that we all know what we're talking about.

>On the other hand, the term 'abortion' has lots of baggage so maybe it would be better to use 'termination of pregnancy'.

Precisely.

I'm very aware of what may be interpreted from what I say - though I am not in a position now where people may take my words as truth, in 18 months time, I will be.

It is expected of me that I choose my words with care, and I do despair when others do not.

Stay ,
WD

>Effects of pregnancy. That includes, I am assuming, miscarriage, stillbirth, malnutrition complicated by pregancy etc. Plus, I am also assuming, induced abortion! (Also an effect of pregnancy..)
That's not really a comparison...

Your assumption is incorrect. The effects of pregnancy are:

Infection
Pre-eclampsia
Obstetric choleostasis
Hyperemesis gravidarum
Post-partum bleeding
Complications of labour.

A termination of pregancy - that is a gynaecological issue, not an obstetric issue.

Hence my comparison stands.

Stay ,
WD