h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Women *do* die during legal abortions. It's silly to deny it. I'll find a link.

Hello Math,

Yes I agree that Della does have a very Christian viewpoint on the subject, funny thing is, before I had children of my own, I would have totally agreed with her, and declared abortion, murder.

However, during my first pregnancy, when I was 34 years old, I did all the usual tests for detecting disabilities, etc., the test results came back advising an amniocentisis because it seemed that I had a high risk of possible Downs Syndrome, this made me think, what would I do? could I in all honesty say that I would not consider an abortion? even though I was supposedly totally against it? I tried to justify these thoughts, thinking oh well, if there is an imperfection then I suppose it is alright.....

That kind of thinking, I decided, was just to make myself feel better, just in case, but then I realised the total hypocrisy of it, either I believed that abortion was a necessary option to all women, or not, that simple.

My personal belief as a Christian is, God is Love, which means He does not want to see children born into misery and suffering, or women to suffer and die through giving birth to children they cannot possibly hope to feed, I am also pretty positive, although He hasn,t told me directly...that He is not particularly in favour of returning to the days of the gin bottle and knitting needle!!! OK somewhat crude, which many may not like, but that is the grim reality of what would happen if abortion was illegal.

There will ALWAYS be unwanted pregnancies.

No-one should ever judge anyone who has to take such a decision, it,s a heartbreakingly hard one to take, and any potential stone throwers should take a look in the mirror before throwing a stone.

You wicked Math??? I am FAAAAARRRR more wickeder than you!!!!
(um is wickeder actually a word? or did I just make it up?)

Jane

As my sister Carol once said in a different context "Everyone has the right to change her mind, and to be given credit for the genuineness of that change"...

Hello again, here is the first link I found, and some segments from the article.
http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/bioethics/abortion/a0026837.cfm

Women die from legal abortion. Women should be informed that complications from abortion can be life threatening and fatal. In fact, abortion can be much riskier than many women realize.
(For more information, go to www.afterabortion.org)

Common themes among reported abortion deaths are that the death occurs immediately or shortly after the abortion—or that the woman had such serious complications that she was taken to a nearby hospital where she died. The woman’s death is often made public when family members take legal action against the abortion clinic.
In remembrance of the women who have died from legal abortion since 1973, here are a few of their stories.



Partial List of Known Abortion Deaths

Holly Patterson, 18, died September 17, 2003 in Pleasanton, CA
Patterson died at a local hospital one week after receiving the chemical abortion drug, mifepristone (also known as RU-486), from a Planned Parenthood affiliate. She was seven weeks pregnant. Patterson's father says a doctor at the hospital told him that she died from "septic shock and a massive systemic infection as a result of not expelling all of her fetus." The U.S. Food and Drug Administration is investigating her death.1

Diana Lopez, 25, died February 28, 2002 in Los Angeles, CA
Lopez was 18 weeks pregnant when she went to the Los Angeles Planned Parenthood for an abortion by Dr. Mark Maltzer. According to the Los Angeles County Coroner’s Office, “she bled to death after her cervix was punctured during her abortion.” She died at a nearby hospital after an emergency hysterectomy. Lopez’ family is suing Planned Parenthood and Maltzer on behalf of her two living children.2

Nicey Washington, 26, died June 6, 2000 in Brooklyn, NY
Washington went to the Ambulatory Surgery center in Sunset Park for an abortion and died shortly afterwards. She was rushed to the hospital and declared dead about an hour later, after suffering heart failure. 3

Kimberly K. Neil, age unknown, died May 22, 2000 in Fresno, CA
Abortionist Kenneth Wright and the Family Planning Associates Medical Group face a malpractice lawsuit filed by Neil’s family—which claims Neil was not properly treated after she went into respiratory arrest during the May 5, 2000 abortion. Neil slipped into a coma and died May 22.4

Tamika Dowdy, 22, died December 2, 1998 in Brooklyn, NY
Paramedics were called to the Brooklyn Women’s Medical Pavilion and began performing cardiopulmonary resuscitation on Dowdy when her heart stopped after having an abortion. She was transported to a nearby hospital where she was pronounced dead. 5

Lou Anne Herron, 33, died April 14, 1998 in Phoenix, AZ
Abortion clinic employees told police Herron suffered in a recovery room for three hours after an abortion, bleeding heavily and complaining of numbness. Employees say abortionist John Biskind left the clinic while Herron was in distress. An employee called for emergency assistance, but by the time help arrived, Herron had bled to death due to a perforated uterus. In May 2001, Biskind was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to five years in prison in connection with Herron’s death.6
There follow others and a list of references...

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I am not sure myself, but I am reasonably certain that that is *not* the position of the Catholic church. Maybe a person who is a Catholic can come along and say whether that is the case. I sincerely doubt it!
I know of at least two women who wanted to continue with pregnancies they were told would kill them. Would you all say these women should be locked up, head-shrunk and aborted for their own good, or would you allow *them* the right to choose?

This post has been removed.

Women *do* die during legal abortions. It's silly to deny it. I'll find a link."

Why bother? Many more women die from driving cars, but the fact would never manage to overturn our right to drive dangerous vehicles in a court of law.

<>

Well, being pro-choice, my opinion is that they should have the right to choose. Though I would suggest getting three separate medical opinions and advice on their condition before deciding, to be sure that they have all the correct information they need to make the best decision for themselves.

Also, I don't think anyone here has said that they don't believe any women ever die from legal terminations. People die from all sorts of surgical procedures for many different reasons.

az

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Maybe it should. It bothers me that so many people seem to take road fatalities as being inevitable and so almost unimportant - like a matter of nature, that can't be helped. Road 'accidents' are not like tornadoes, something tragic that can't be helped...

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I got the impression that many people here *were* denying that women die from legal abortion, and using the fact that Norma McCorvey said that they do, to undermine her credibility...That's why the link.

I definitely believe that driving dangerous vehicles in a court of law should be banned right this instant!

az

Fair enough.

Okay, I *have* read the backlog, and if I restate anything, I apologize.

I am 32 years old and have terminated two pregnancies. I know that having read that sentence, some people have already cast judgement upon me, and I can live with that.

The first was when I was 19 years old. It was detected very early on, and well before the fetus could have surivived outside the womb. I was on a mutlitude of prescription medicines, all of which were known to cause "possible" birth defects, and made my decision to terminate based on that. It was neither an easy nor a convenient decision to make. It was based purely on knowing what suffering and excruciating pain is like, and opting not to force that sort of life upon another. I do not know whether or not that choice was ultimately the "right" one, but I had gotten extensive counseling previously, and made the decision not at all unmindfully. And I will live with that choice, whether I think it was right or wrong, or neither, or both, for the rest of the life.

The next time was more difficult... it was a planned and wanted pregnancy. No meds used, proper diet and nutrition, I went to great lengths to ensure I'd give birth to a healthy baby, not a sickly, unwanted preemie like myself. But then, something terrible happened. I was involved in a serious car wreck, and all other things considered (including the death of my husband, which had NO bearing on my decision), I was given a choice between proper medical treatment and good chances of recovery for myself (and a good chance of future pregnancies as well, should I so desire, which I happen to), and the termination of a five-month pregnancy. I had already chosen a name. And so forth. But, when it came down to it, I chose my life over hers (yes, it was to be a girl). Am I wrong for having done that? Should I have sacrificed *my* life for hers? The choice was not easy, I honestly questioned which life was worth more. But in retrospect, I think I have done more good by choosing my own life and the possibility of creating more later, than sacrificing myself and leaving a fetus, which may or may not have survived. to its fate. This has been much harder to come to terms with, but I've managed to do so, since I learned to value my own life as a woman over any Judeochristian ideal of myself as an extension of man and a mere vessel for his offspring.

I am not supporting those people who use abortion as a method of birth control, as opposed to behaving in a responsible manner sexually. I've known this kind of person, male or female. And I must admit that I do think that if someone murders a pregnant women who had every intention of carrying a child to term has committed a heinous crime against both. But having been there, twice, I cannot in good conscience ever be against a woman's right to put her own life first. So, here I am, pro-choice, and proud of it.

Granted, this late-term abortion thing is wholly different from first-trimester termination... early on, a fetus is not an independent life. But as I was born a preemie, at just over 23 weeks, I can attest to the fact that third-trimester pregnancies are different. But I'd never force a woman to give birth, and sacrifice her own life, or force a child to cope with debilitating illness or handicap, no matter what kind of life I have known seriously ill or handicapped people to have. That's too much to ask of any human being.

Just my It's probably not worth much, and I feel like an idiot for saying anything. But if seeing what it's like from the same or from the opposite camp helps, I'm glad if I could.

Worth a great deal, psychocandy. Thank you for sharing that.

Thank you Jane and Psycho for sharing your stories

They both show what the real practicalities of this issue can be. Della I think it rather shows your argument up for the dogmatic nonsense it is. Peoples brave and heart rending choices can not be condemned by your broad thrusts against these *alleged* women who brag about about using terminations as birth control.

Furthermore, Della, your assertion that you feel anyone pro-choice is denying that deaths occur during legal terminations is one of your more blatant uses of the straw-man ploy. Please cut and paste or just put the post number of any post that denies or even seems to deny any such thing or shut up.

*You* seem to be over looking the fact that women are harmed by illegal terminations, women abandon babies that they do not want sometimes or even kill them. Let me make it clear, I DO NOT CONDONE ANYTHING IN THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE. They are simply facts of what happen in the real world, I will not bother to get any stats on them because I know they will be flawed due to the fact that people in these desperate circumstances dont hang around to fill in monitoring forms. Which is why holding up the numbers of women who do seek proper medical help after legal terminations is spitting in the face of women who are harmed or even die but are too scared to seek proper help after illegal backstreet terminations.

one love

az,

You said: <>

Clearly stating - or so I thought - that I didn't think changing an opinion was hypocritical>>

Yes, you are saying that changing her mind and then trying to get her new opinion onto the law books is hypocritical, I understand the words you are saying, I just don't agree! Not sure if you read the next bit, I went on to say:

"Thing is, you and I know that it is the law makers who make the law, but she feels responsible - every time Roe vs Wade is cited, that is her (assumed) name there. The fact that it could have been any other woman in the same position is by-the-by, she was the poster child for that law so she sees it as her 'fault'. She was the plaintiff who was asking for the change in the law and she got it. Now she feels she shouldn't have asked, and wants to undo what she did."

I do not think this makes her a hypocrite, I think it makes her misguided and sad. She is clearly a very disturbed person, that came across strongly in the interview.

Az- "I mentioned nothing about her original opinion being hypocritical (perhaps it was, but she *was* looking to have an abortion at the time)" Yes and my point was, she may once have disagreed with abortion (she implied that in the interview but then she seems to be doing a fair amount of rewriting of history given her new viewpoint), changed her mind that it should be safe and legal and got that change onto the statute books.


"rather an unkind suggestion to have made, Kelli, sorry you have such a low opinion of me" Calm down, you know that isn't the case - I even stuck a smiley in there to show I wasn't being entirely serious...

hi psychocandy,

You read the entire backlog??? Wow!

I think your addition to the debate was (and is) worth a lot. I don't think I need to give you my opinion of anyone who would cast judgement upon you for having made such difficult choices (and anyhow, bit nervous about using the H-word these days ).

You sound not only pro-choice but also pro-life (in the true sense of the word).

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Well said. And I think Jane's pro-choice stance as a Christian shows that religious beliefs are not an excuse for wishing to interfere with another person's life choices.

az

Just catching up on my own backlog. The last 5 pages have been great reading

PC and Jane, thank-you for your stories. It's always _very_ good to have real life experience to balance the ideas.


I just wanted to bring up a caution about ok-ing early abortions but not late ones where the foetus would survive on it's own. Because what happens when medical science learns how to save first trimester foetuses?

Nyss, in regards to your earlier posts about late abortions, there was alot of discussion and links about this (reasons for and medical procedures and why they were chosen) in the earlier part of the thread. Unfortunately you'd have to wade through alot of heated rhetoric as well.

Hmm, Della I think it was more the hysterical sounding "thousands of women die through abortion," without any source that she could name that was the issue.

Operations and medication have dangers. Everyone knows this. I'm sure everyone would hope that women would be informed on the dangers of various types of abortion versus the dangers of natural childbirth. Ultimately I would prefer that information to come from the medical profession, who swear the hippocratic oath and have medical training; than politicians, who have the pressures of winning votes.

I think Della has been confused by our use of the word of *safe*.

We are not using it as an absolute, must we say comparatively safe as opposed to in through the back door of the butchers, knitting needles, lots of gin, hot baths and throwing yourself down the stairs.

It is doubtful that any of the women who died from legal abortion realized that this procedure would result in their death.

DOUBTFUL!

What drugs are these people on? Its not doubtful at all! I can tell you Im pretty damn sure that no sane person goes in for an elective procedure thinking they will die.


Della if that site is anything to go by christians will die from terminal stupidity pretty soon.

It says that every one who wants to have and raise children should get married as this is a better way for families to be......OK I'll play along.

It says that cohabiting couples are poorer because they earn and save less. Experience more domestic violence and have greater rates of drug and alcohol abuse....Im not going to question their reseach methods or the way they compile their results.

So I should just advise all the bashed up, poor drug addict women I come across to get married abd their lives will improve....Is is that simple? Maybe the lord performs miracles and makes all married couples happy?....Yeah right.

Have you ever heard of putting the cart before the horse. Lets try it the other way round. People who experience violence from a partner, who are in low paid jobs where they arent saving money and spending all they have on drugs and booze are less likely to want to get married, be able to afford a wedding or sober up long enough to fill out the forms.

The break down of marriage, teen pregnancies, increased STD infection rates, more terminations and violent persecution of christians might not be the cause of the breakdown of societies standards they might be the symptom. Atleast I know where you get your stuff from now Della, a site that backs the Texan Fundies in the teaching of creation as science.

one love