h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The man has an opinion. Clearly it's a /wrong/ opinion because... well... /I/ don't agree with it, but calling him Catholic is just below the belt.

That said, he thinks abortion is murder. You regard your body as sancrosanct, and your right to self-determination of what happens to that body as paramount.

However, playing Devil's Advocate here, doesn't that make it a killing in self-defense? Or does it really constitute justifiable force when you could dump the sprog in nine months anyway?

The old saying is right, y'know. It is 'Impossible to have a light-heartened discussion about terminating pregnancies'.

For risk analysis - here are some figures for you:

Mortality risk as a result of a caesarian section - 0.33 women per 1000 women having this procedure (though the Oxford Handbook doesn't tell us what this is due to; infection, haemorrhage et al...)

Mortality risk for a ToP performed in the first trimester (<9weeks): 1 woman per 100000 who have a ToP before 9 weeks (UK)

Complications for a ToP performed in the second trimester (12-24 weeks) - I can't find any mortality figures, will get back to you on this, but the complications are rare according to the book - they are visceral damage (bowel perforation) and perforation of the uterus.

For comparison, I've included a common procedure done for visualising the bowel - a colonoscopy. This is using an endoscope to view the whole of the large bowel, and yes, that does mean putting it up the anus. The perforation risk for a colonoscopy is 1 per 200 colonoscopies performed.

WD

light-hearted even. my typing is getting terrible.

What? You mean you're not enjoying this?

H.

Dunno really. I don't understand what people are getting so worked up about.

Which is exactly why I am pro-choice. We all live in a democracy - women should have the right to choose without demonisation.

>(and that of HB)

Okay, I can't think of this. Who is HB?

I don't believe I was using the term *Catholic* as an insult...

Why am I getting worked up? Ah. The fundamental differences between the sexes. No one is threatening your freedom. Anyone who sits there and believes abortion should be banned, is threatening MINE. That's why I get worked up.

H - regarding the actual procedure, there are two methods of ToP. The medical (i.e. no anaesthetic involved) method is induction of labour, and the products of conception are expelled (the books describe it as similar to a heavy period if done before 9 weeks, and after 12 weeks, the process of labour and delivery would be fatal to the foetus).

In the surgical method, the cervix is dilated, and via suction, the products of conception are removed. The procedure is fatal to the foetus.

WD

They aren't really threatening your freedom. It's not like a country with an official relgion like ours would ever ban them.

Plus as a potential father it is pretty relevant to my freedom as well.

But still..

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I liked the bit they had on the simpsons:

Abortions for none!

Boooooo!!

Abortions for all!

Boooooo!!

Abortions for some, miniature american flags for others!

yaaaayyy!!

*applauds*

Milo:

Education in Wales up to the standard of the rest of the Sun-reading UK, then... " It's not like a country with an official relgion like ours would ever ban them."

When do you think abortion was first made legal in this country?



Witty Ditty:

thanks for the info. Unpredictably enough, I did actually know that, and more, because my aunt has been a community midwife for, I think, over twenty years, and she's told me more than I really wanted to know

However, please do go on assuming I *don't* know stuff, because 99.9% of the time you will be right!

Two Bit:

Last summer I went to the meet in Hyde Park with my other half, who does not use h2g2. Everyone was to have a badge. I made a badge saying "Hoovooloo". Obviously.

She demanded a badge too, and when I asked her what she wanted on it, she first suggested "Hoovooloo's woman", and then after a moment's reflection bounced up and down and said "no, no, put 'Hoovooloo's Bitch'". I put on the face which is called "are you sure?", but she was insistent. And I've since referred to her on here as "HB", and I usually follow that with the line about 'she still puts the lead in my pencil'...

H.

What I meant was that as the official religion is now mainly social rather than religious it wouldn't be grounds for banning them.

No need for personal attacks.

2Bit, I agree that this is a subject on which it is impossible to have a reasoned debate because people like Sat and like Nerd42 argue from emotion not from either fact or reason.

Hoo - good point about fuzzy events instead of binary events.

Sat - "Nothing wrong with judging people." Um. Actually. Yes there is. I am not going to add more to that comment because I can't be bothered to rant just now.

Nerd42 - "I think affairs and divorces are all wrong. Wrong. Especially wrong when there's children involved." Whatever. But I am here to confirm that my divorce was not wrong, and that the affair I am referring to did no harm and in fact did a reasonable amount of good.

B

Milo: it wasn't a personal attack - it was an observation that you, like very, very many other people, seem to have a short memory.

"What I meant was that as the official religion is now mainly social rather than religious..."

Don't kid yourself. You might like to think we live in a rationalist secular democracy. Take a look in the House of Lords, and count the bishops. Take a look at a coin of the realm and ponder the significance of the letters "F.D.". Go into any court of law and see what the default expectation is in terms of promising to tell the truth. The church in this country is part of the establishment, in a very real sense. Its influence infects society at every level.

And if you think that all that is relatively harmless and that really we're a modern, civilised country, immune to the more rabid and ludicrous excesses of the Bible belt of the southern United States, may I suggest you avoid sending your children to Emmanuel College, Gateshead, which teaches Creationism in science classes - legally. A734302

H.