h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I recognize this post

I'm curious how y'all might interpret this passage. Note the footnote.
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EXOD+21&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

It seems to me that a fetus doesn't count in the 'a life for a life' sort of punitiveness of the Old Testament, anyway.


I did always think it was odd that we have such an abiding love for chicken amniotic fluid .

(That's Exodus 21:22, btw...all those readings of the Bible *were* useful for something )

*Why* stone the bull to death???



az

Bad bull! Bad!



Let this be a lesson to all you other bulls!

*bulls p*ss off*

"Please stop using the phrase "partial birth abortion" as well please. It has no real meaning, its just an emotive propaganda phrase."

Then so is the phrase "heart attack". That's really just dramatizing it, right? We should stop using that phrase and say "acute myocardial infarction" instead.

"How many times must this be explained before you will understand? There is a thing called "patient confidentiality". .... What we CANNOT do is tell you about a specific case, any more than we could tell you about a specific case of kidney disease or heart attack or bowel cancer, unless it had happened to one of us directly."

I can find people's personal stories of all kinds of diseases all over the 'Net. Like, here's someone's personal story of a heart attack:
www.thebee.com/bweb/iinfo122.htm

And yes, abortion stories too:
www.thebee.com/bweb/iinfo122.htm
http://www.seghea.com/pat/life/mystory.html
http://www.yppo.com/jeremy.htm

In the links I chose to list here from my Google search for "my abortion" I have tried to avoid using those that are hosted by pro-life organization's websites in order to get some kind of objectivity. But still, I haven't found any personal stories that speak out in support of abortion. Why? Why if this is a personal choice, is there no one in the world who is proud enough the choice they made for abortion enough to give their stories? They could stay ananymous. But they're not there. If there were large numbers of these people, I'm sure Planned Parenthood would be all over it, spewing forth all kinds of stories like that all over the place. Yet they don't. Why? Especially when this is an "operation" that saved their lives! Wouldn't there be anyone who would consent to telling about it? I would submit that the reason why is that the vast majority of women who get abortions regret what they did afterwards.

"We can present you with general statistics - which you will not understand, because you are too stupid. We can present you with explanations of procedures, definitions, and reasons for terminology - which you will not understand because you are too stupid."

Have I called anyone else here stupid? If I have, then I guess I'm getting what I deserve from people like you. Otherwise, shut up. If you're going to complain about my not being polite, you should practice what you preach.

"That rather depends on whether you live in a civilised country, Nerd42. OUR modern doctors in the enlightened, non-barbarian UK do have to swear to it."

Ah, so doctors do still have to swear to the Hippocratic Oath, which forbids abortions. I'm glad to hear it. I figured it was like the pledge of alliegance or something, that they don't have to follow. Just some ancient thing that has nothing to do with the present. Kind of like what you people think about the Bible. It's funny to hear you people arguing in favor of ancient commandments. Thus, Planned Parenthood doesn't have real doctors working for them. They are hippocrites to take the Hippocratic Oath.

"I can't speak for benighted, backward countries run by religious fundamentalists who, despite religion-based opposition to abortion nevertheless sanction the killing by the state of prisoners."

Prisoners have been found guilty of a crime at a fair trial. The unborn have committed no crime, and have not had any kind of trial, much less a fair one. They are innocent, and are being put to death on the basis of another private individual's "right-to-choose". I think people should be treated "innocent until proven guilty", don't you agree?

Please do not try to debate with me about capital punishment right now. I have supported capital punishment in the past, (except for the electric chair, which I think is not humane) but am currently rethinking my position due to corruption in the courts.

Nerd42

Oh, no! They didn't all get listed, and the heart attack one got listed twice! Oops!

You all think I'm stupid? Well, you've got a high-school teenager on the other end here, you know. Who do you expect? Einstein?

Nerd42

Without becoming involverd in the debate per se (I'm unable to get online enough to do it justice) may I point out just one factual point?

The Hippocratic Oath is *not* a prerequisite of becoming a medical practitioner in the UK. Few is any medical establishments use it.
Some use a different form of ethical statement (such as the Declaration of Geneva). Many - if not most - use no such formal exercise.

Some doctors and medical students do choose to swear the HO, as a personal statement, but even they often change it a little. For instance, some
Christian Medical groups use it, but don't choose to "Swear by Apollo" as most versions begin (it's hard to say there's an absolute version of a
text thousands of years old.)

I can't get a link to anywhere like the BMA site at the moment - where I might get a definitive source - but here's a few links aqround the subject:

BBC news story on how the HO is 'rarely' used in the UK:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1801675.stm

Article on Hippocratic and other Oaths in the Irish Medical Journal
http://www.imj.ie/news_detail.php?nNewsId=2527&nVolId=97

version of the HO used by one (anti-abortion) Christian Fellowship
http://www.cmfglasgow.org.uk/hippocraticoath.htm

A 'Notes and Queries' from the Guardian about the pagan element
http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-19454,00.html

Liverpool Uni version of the Declaration of Geneva
http://www.liv.ac.uk/FacultyMedicine/handbk/hippocratic.html

Forgive the intrusion

"The Hippocratic Oath is *not* a prerequisite of becoming a medical practitioner in the UK. Few is any medical establishments use it.
Some use a different form of ethical statement (such as the Declaration of Geneva). Many - if not most - use no such formal exercise."

Aha! That's exactly what I thought was the case! I knew some doctors used it, and some doctors didn't.

Nerd42

Nerd42 I will stop making barbed comments about you and your posts as it has grown a little stale presently but in the future who knows...

Anyway you wonder why there is a paucity of accounts from women who have had terminations that give a positive spin to the situation that they were in and the feelings they were left with afterwards. You have a litle think about it and come up with this pearl of wisdom:

*I would submit that the reason why is that the vast majority of women who get abortions regret what they did afterwards.*

Funny how you work this out long after that very idea was explained to you at length by AZ.

The facts are that (1)there are no real positive stories about termination because a drastic and traumatic procedure EVERYTIME.(2) This does not mean that it should be banned and removed as a lesser of two bad outcomes procedure.

"The facts are that there are no real positive stories about termination because a drastic and traumatic procedure EVERYTIME."

That's the point behind the pro-life slogan, "Abortion Hurts Women".

It means that abortions are painful for both mother and child. It means that the people who work in abortion clinics don't care about women at all, because they're in it for the money, and they're afraid of pro-lifers because they're cutting in on their buisness. If they did care, they would tell about *all* the options, not just abortion. They'd have resources availible about adoption, and where to get help if needed. They'd tell the whole truth about how far the child has developed, and whether the operation might be painful. I've heard it asked of abortion(termination) clinic owners "What if a fifteen-year-old came to your clinic with no friends, no family, no place to sleep, no money, and no desire to have an abortion.(termination) What services could your clinic offer her?" The answer is always the same: None. They offer only aboriton, and unsanitary abortion too.

Most cases of abortion (read termination if you prefer) aren't the hard cases like we've been talking about in this thread. Looking back, in cases other than partial birth abortion(termination), it seems I shouldn't have even moved on to talking about the hard cases until I addressed the normal cases first. I was in a discussion recently that seems to sum up my case pretty well. I don't remember exactly how it came up, I was talking to a friend, I said I was pro-life. Somebody else who had already heard I was a conservative said:

"Well, you'd better put your money where your mouth is. If you're going to be Pro-Life, and bring all these unwanted children into the world, then you'd better be willing to raise taxes to pay for programs to raise them."

I said, "There already is one! It's called adoption!"

He really didn't expect that one, and tried to prove that adoption was inadequate.

I said, "How many abortions do you think there are per year? How many people want to adopt? Let's look it up, because I'm sure we're covered. At least in the US."

I looked it up then, we were. I'll look it up again now....

A quick Google search reveals a site I haven't looked at before: abortionfacts.com Might prove useful.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_34.asp#How%20many%20babies%20are%20adopted?
This page says there are two million couples waiting to adopt.

http://www.cirtl.org/stats.htm
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3026398.html
This page says 1.5 million babies aborted per year.

I, for one, want to see the first number go up and the second number go down.


Nerd42

"The facts are that there are no real positive stories about termination because a drastic and traumatic procedure EVERYTIME."

That's the point behind the pro-life slogan, "Abortion Hurts Women".

It means that abortions are painful for both mother and child. It means that the people who work in abortion clinics don't care about women at all, because they're in it for the money, and they're afraid of pro-lifers because they're cutting in on their buisness. If they did care, they would tell about *all* the options, not just abortion. They'd have resources availible about adoption, and where to get help if needed. They'd tell the whole truth about how far the child has developed, and whether the operation might be painful. I've heard it asked of abortion(termination) clinic owners "What if a fifteen-year-old came to your clinic with no friends, no family, no place to sleep, no money, and no desire to have an abortion.(termination) What services could your clinic offer her?" The answer is always the same: None. They offer only aboriton, and unsanitary abortion too.

Most cases of abortion (read termination if you prefer) aren't the hard cases like we've been talking about in this thread. Looking back, in cases other than partial birth abortion(termination), it seems I shouldn't have even moved on to talking about the hard cases until I addressed the normal cases first. I was in a discussion recently that seems to sum up my case pretty well. I don't remember exactly how it came up, I was talking to a friend, I said I was pro-life. Somebody else who had already heard I was a conservative said:

"Well, you'd better put your money where your mouth is. If you're going to be Pro-Life, and bring all these unwanted children into the world, then you'd better be willing to raise taxes to pay for programs to raise them."

I said, "There already is one! It's called adoption!"

He really didn't expect that one, and tried to prove that adoption was inadequate.

I said, "How many abortions do you think there are per year? How many people want to adopt? Let's look it up, because I'm sure we're covered. At least in the US."

I looked it up then, we were. I'll look it up again now....

A quick Google search reveals a site I haven't looked at before: abortionfacts.com Might prove useful.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_34.asp#How%20many%20babies%20are%20adopted?
This page says there are two million couples waiting to adopt.

http://www.cirtl.org/stats.htm
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3026398.html
This page says 1.5 million babies aborted per year.

I, for one, want to see the first number go up and the second number go down.


Nerd42

"The facts are that there are no real positive stories about termination because a drastic and traumatic procedure EVERYTIME."

That's the point behind the pro-life slogan, "Abortion Hurts Women".

It means that abortions are painful for both mother and child. It means that the people who work in abortion clinics don't care about women at all, because they're in it for the money, and they're afraid of pro-lifers because they're cutting in on their buisness. If they did care, they would tell about *all* the options, not just abortion. They'd have resources availible about adoption, and where to get help if needed. They'd tell the whole truth about how far the child has developed, and whether the operation might be painful. I've heard it asked of abortion(termination) clinic owners "What if a fifteen-year-old came to your clinic with no friends, no family, no place to sleep, no money, and no desire to have an abortion.(termination) What services could your clinic offer her?" The answer is always the same: None. They offer only aboriton, and unsanitary abortion too.

Most cases of abortion (read termination if you prefer) aren't the hard cases like we've been talking about in this thread. Looking back, in cases other than partial birth abortion(termination), it seems I shouldn't have even moved on to talking about the hard cases until I addressed the normal cases first. I was in a discussion recently that seems to sum up my case pretty well. I don't remember exactly how it came up, I was talking to a friend, I said I was pro-life. Somebody else who had already heard I was a conservative said:

"Well, you'd better put your money where your mouth is. If you're going to be Pro-Life, and bring all these unwanted children into the world, then you'd better be willing to raise taxes to pay for programs to raise them."

I said, "There already is one! It's called adoption!"

He really didn't expect that one, and tried to prove that adoption was inadequate.

I said, "How many abortions do you think there are per year? How many people want to adopt? Let's look it up, because I'm sure we're covered. At least in the US."

I looked it up then, we were. I'll look it up again now....

A quick Google search reveals a site I haven't looked at before: abortionfacts.com Might prove useful.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_34.asp#How%20many%20babies%20are%20adopted?
This page says there are two million couples waiting to adopt.

http://www.cirtl.org/stats.htm
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3026398.html
This page says 1.5 million babies aborted per year.

I, for one, want to see the first number go up and the second number go down.


Nerd42

"A quick Google search reveals a site I haven't looked at before: abortionfacts.com Might prove useful.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_34.asp#How%20many%20babies%20are%20adopted?
This page says there are two million couples waiting to adopt.

http://www.cirtl.org/stats.htm
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3026398.html
This page says 1.5 million babies aborted per year."

Nerd have you researched how many children there are currenlty waiting for adoption...52,000 in 1996...it's not difficult to find a child needing adoption - it is difficult to find a baby. Encourage more women to carry through their pregnancy and flood the adoption market with cute little babies and all the children who find it hard to find adoptive homes now (mainly those with physical or mental problems or siblings who can't be parted) will find it nigh on impossible and be resigned to a lifetime in care.

(the source for those numbers http://www.myorphanage.org/text/statisticsstates.html took a bit of adding up but it's worth it for decent stats)

"I am not a fundamentalist, but I am sure you superior people will tell me I am one, because of course, you know better..."

Well, I don't know better. I asked if you were one, because certain of your beliefs are consistent with fundamentalism. You tell me you're not - fine.

"But *why* assume (other than your vehement disagreement with them) that 'fundamentalists' are dumb?"

Why assume that someone who prefers to believe something written in a book to the evidence of their own eyes is dumb? Isn't it obvious? I mean, why assume that someone drives their car into a tree is dumb? Why assume that someone who thinks Austria is next to New Zealand is dumb? Why assume that someone who uses the word "misunderestimated" is dumb? Because it's a reasonable assumption. It's not necessarily true, obviously - but until there's a better explanation, "they're dumb" seems a safe bet.

"I'm sure you don't use the word 'dumb' with its correct meaning of mute - but its American meaning of stupid..."

Um... Adele, are you still labouring under the wrong impression that I'm in some way a Yank? Have you failed to read or understand my repeated corrections of this error of yours? Or are you just refusing to understand it for some reason of your own? I'm honestly interested in why you persist in implying that I live in a country I've never visited.

"They may have mental blocks on some topics, but they are *not* stupid!"

I don't think I need to comment on that.

"Look at Dubya's henchmen! They would not be one half as dangerous if they were as stupid as you-all wish..."

Um... isn't kind of the point that they're dangerous because Dubya himself is stupid? And isn't the reason the majority of them are dangerous not because they're particularly clever, but because they're RICH?



"...its just an emotive propaganda phrase."
Then so is the phrase "heart attack". ... We should stop using that phrase and say "acute myocardial infarction" instead."

"Partial birth abortion" = 6 syllables
"D&X" = 3 syllables

"Heart attack" = 3 syllables
"Acute myocardial infarction" = 10 syllables.

And certain members of my family do in fact refer to the event that killed my uncle at 40 as an MI, rather than a "heart attack". I personally don't think the phrase "heart attack" is particularly emotive, in that it accurately reports that something drastic happens to the heart. Crucially, nobody is using the words "heart attack" to try to dishonestly persuade people that doctors should be restricted in the way they treat their patients.

"I haven't found any personal stories that speak out in support of abortion. Why?"

Because you're not paying attention. You've had a personal story from someone who supports the right of a woman to choose in this very thread, and it's the height of rudeness and ignorance for you to have ignored it.

"Why? Especially when this is an "operation" that saved their lives! Wouldn't there be anyone who would consent to telling about it?"

Bit of homework for you, Nerd42 - try finding a tale, anywhere at all, from someone saying what a wonderful and life-affirming experience they had getting their legs amputated.

Just one.

Betcha can't.

Why? Is it because amputating people's legs is wrong? Is it because doctors ought to be prevented from doing it?

Or, possibly, is it because it's something people have done because there's no alternative, something doctors would rather not do, and something which, once you've had it done, you'd really rather not talk about, most especially to boorish ignorant little gits like you?

"I would submit that the reason why is that the vast majority of women who get abortions regret what they did afterwards."

Duh. See above.

"Have I called anyone else here stupid?"

Can't you remember?

"If I have, then I guess I'm getting what I deserve from people like you. Otherwise, shut up."

Yessir. At once sir.

"If you're going to complain about my not being polite, you should practice what you preach."

I'm not complaining about you not being POLITE, Nerd42. I'm complaining about you not being INTELLIGENT, or even apparently literate.

"I think people should be treated "innocent until proven guilty", don't you agree?"

Yup. But you're getting back to that little point you still don't seem to have processed, which is this:

When do we start being "people"? You keep banging on about this "moment of conception" and "when the zygote exists", not acknowledging that you're talking utter nonsense. Never mind, eh.

"Please do not try to debate with me about capital punishment right now."

Bod forbid, it's tiresome enough trying to get you to understand the most basic facts about biology, let's not get into ethics and justice.

"I have supported capital punishment in the past,"

Why am I not even a tiny bit surprised?

"(except for the electric chair, which I think is not humane)"



"but am currently rethinking my position due to corruption in the courts."

Excellent reason. Basic fallibility of humans isn't the reason, it's "corruption", and if only we could weed that out we could get on with the killin'. Oh. No. Hang on. That should be

H.

*This page says there are two million couples waiting to adopt.
This page says 1.5 million babies aborted per year.
I, for one, want to see the first number go up and the second number go down.*



I think you meant to say both go down.

Well Nerd if you had been paying attention, I get the impression you have not, you would know that everyone on this thread feels much the same way as you do.

I, and Im pretty sure I dont speak for myself because I have been paying attetion to what other people post, dont think the best way of achieveing the changes you would like to see is to outlaw terminations or withdraw state funding for them.

That's the point behind the pro-life slogan, "Abortion Hurts Women"."



"It means that abortions are painful for both mother and child."

Duh.

"It means that the people who work in abortion clinics don't care about women at all, because they're in it for the money"

I know a lot of people who work in the health service - all branches - and I don't know a single one who's in it for the money. Not one. Hardly a representative sample, but a telling one, I think.

Do please let's get away from this concept that abortion is in some way a money-making scam. For one thing, if abortion were made illegal tomorrow, every single person working in abortion clinics could probably double their pay packet by going working in cosmetic surgeries. Now THAT I could see as potentially describable as a "racket". But abortion? Nah.

"and they're afraid of pro-lifers because they're cutting in on their buisness."

Ahem. Abortion providers are not afraid of prolifers because they're cutting in on business. They're afraid of prolifers because prolifers KILL DOCTORS. Small technical difference.

"If they did care, they would tell about *all* the options, not just abortion."

Ever had abortion counselling, Nerd42? I know someone who has. Without wishing to be too specific - it's exhaustive.

"I've heard it asked of abortion(termination) clinic owners ... The answer is always the same: None. They offer only aboriton, and unsanitary abortion too."

Umm... what unbiased source did you get that quote from, please?

I won't even go there on the abortion vs. adoption thing, because someone else has been there first, and because it really is just too easy.

H.

Nerd42,
I know many people that abortions in their teenage years. Not because they were at (or anywhere near) death's door, but because they felt they were too young, and were at the wrong point in their lives for having a child, and most probably raising it alone. Most of those women are sad that they put themselves in that position, and I am sure all of them have thought about their abortion since.

All of them are glad that they had a choice to make that included as one option a safe termination. None of those that I know think they made the wrong choice. They aren't tortured souls, but are successful women, some of whom now have families that they wanted and felt ready for. Many would say that, while it is a choice that they were sad to make, it was THEIRS to make and they made it so that it would have beneficial effect on their lives. And it did.

k

PS. Hoo, when are you going to apologise for lying?

Nerd 42,

<>

My abortion was not physically painful. I cannot speak for the foetus, which was 12 weeks old at the time, the poor thing.

<>

During the procedure I had two doctors and one assistant in attendance. I needed so many because I was very upset. The second doctor was there to basically hold me down as I was quite hysterical. The assistant's only 'job' during the procedure was to massage my hands (which had become clenched shut) and speak and sing softly to me. I don't exactly think this was in his job description. All in all, I think they were very patient with me after I 'flipped out', which truly made their job much harder. After all, I had agreed to have it done. But then I got very emotional at the last minute.

So, not only were these people very professional *and* caring, the clinic was spotless, all the staff were efficient, the post-procedure care was very good. And it cost approx. $300 US.

<<. . .because they're in it for the money, and they're afraid of pro-lifers because they're cutting in on their buisness>>

(counts to ten and then shakes head sadly)

Oh good grief! I had no less than six different staff attend to me at this clinic and I was there for at least four hours. I don't see huge profit margins going on there, quite frankly.

<>

(waves arms over head!)

I'm over here! I totally support the availability of safe and free (for those who cannot afford to pay) abortions for all women who need and want them.

You don't seem to have caught on Nerd, that I am probably way more pro-life (in a real sense) than you are. I could not have had that abortion if there had not been serious health risks, and having it was the worst day of my life.

Yet everytime I see those self-righteous so-called Pro-lifers parading around and abusing women at abortion clinics I get so angry I could spit. You see - I *know* how hard it is to make that decision. And to be quite honest, if I had come across a bunch of those w**kers in front of the clinic I had gone to, far from intimidating me or making me reconsider, it would have made me more resolved that that decision was only *mine* to make. It might have actually made me so angry that I would have forgotten to grieve. So perhaps the w**kers do serve a positive purpose!

If these people are so 'pro-life' then why don't they get lives of their own already?

az

"PS. Hoo, when are you going to apologise for lying?"

Right now.

I inaccurately stated that doctors take the Hippocratic Oath. See what happens when you don't check before saying something? You look stupid.

And now I look stupid, because I didn't check.

Thanks to Cloviscat, for the correction, and thanks to Kelli, for calling me on it.

Sorry. Won't happen again, if I can help it.

H.