h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Moonglum dont want to bash you when your down, but I'm going to play devils advocate:

You went to the pub knowing it would harm your health. So what is more important to you going to the pub or your health?

Kind of like the question that is the subject of this thread.

You knew the risks for you heath of going to the pub to your health, but still did it why?

Like Ben you probably have a logical reason for going to the pub as he justifies smoking logically. When both behavior patterns are illogical. Maybe its just being human, as an occational (anti)social smoker I value my health alot but strike my down with lightning I actually enjoy the odd ciggie, mad, but true!

i understand what you are saying but I never stated that non-smokers cost less than smokers! i said that it would cost a lot less without any form of damaging drugs! particularly cigarettes, and smoking related problems do cost the NHS a lot, i know that a hip replacement is the most exspensive but someone who has a hip problem did not knowingly bring it apon themselves, i know that the tax on such items are high, but due to economic theory it should be higher, if not banned, thats what i suggested, i do not like anything about smoking, i have avoided it, and i just dont see how it is neccessary,

hello! ok i understand that a huge tax is placed on cigarettes already, however, according to economic theory cigarettes are a de merit good, and thus to bring down consumption, taxes should be higher, that is all i am saying, and you cannot defend that, becuase that is fact, i also suggested banning it, and furthermore do not bring obesity into this, that is costing the nation to, however not all food is dangerous and in moderation it is fine, it is way harder to tackle the problem of obesity, and so i will not even start on thst issue yet

I understand what you are trying to say, I hear that it is easy to start but that is only for those with weaker personalities, psychologically speaking, I am allergic to cigarettes and therefore am totally against them, I know that cigarettes are taxed a lot, however adult clothes, and processed foods are charged 17 and a half percent tax! And they are relatively if not completely harmless, and thus in relation to that a de merit good, in this instance, cigarettes, should be taxed more than it already is in order to bring consumption down to the actual economic level, so there are economic justification, and you cannot deny that, that is fact, and cannot be argued with, furthermore you seem to belive that smoking does not cost the NHS that much, well it would cost much less if there were no smokers! And don’t use the obesity problem, it is a completely different issue and much harder to tackle, most ‘damaging’ drugs are banned, I don’t see why smoking should be the exception!

1) Ali1kinobe we have rattled around in enough of the same threads for you to have had the time to have noticed that I am female, as my normal user name 'a girl called Ben' points out very clearly.

2) BS - thanks for the good wishes and good advice. It is South Sweden, only slightly further north than Copenhagen or Edinburgh. I spent the winter of 00/01 in Stockholm, and I am packing my thermals! What is going to be much tougher is the price of booze.

3) Pheloxi - I neither try to hide my (very low level addiction, nor am I illogical about it. Yes I know it damages my health. Yes I know I enjoy it. I pays my money and takes my choice. Some times I choose health. Sometimes I choose enjoyment. There is no lack of logic there, just a shift of priorities. Your priorities are different from mine, therefore your conclusions are different from mine.

4) Miss quixotic - I will continue to bring food addictions into this thread because the psychology and to some extent the physiology are much the same. I have a good working knowlege of a variety of food addictions, both the ones based around weigh-gain and the ones based around food intolerances. I have also experienced both kinds of food addiction at various times over last 20 years. The mental processes are, or can be, identical to the mental processes relating to nicotine addiction. The physiological processes are similar enough for them to be relevant.

5) Oddly enough I agree with you that cigarettes and harder drugs should have the same legal status. However I believe that they should all be legalised. The question of legalisation of drugs has been gone through in much detail elsewhere on this site.

6) There is another reason why I like smoking. Smokers are more fun and considerably better company.

Shame there isn't a smiley.

a bitch called Ben

Hi ali1kinobe

Bash me when I'm down?

My reason for going to the pub is so that I can socialise and drink beer. I work with several strategies such as finding smoke free parts of the room, Sitting in the non smoking part of the room and sitting next to open windows etc. So in answer to your point, I don't go down the pub to commit suicide.

As I previously stated, in one example, an H2G2 Meet. There was a room for the smokers and a room for the non smokers. I stuck to the room of non smokers and that did me no favours because people were smoking in the non smoking area. That's what I mean by inconsiderate.
That's my axe to grind.

I'm not interested in whether or not you can justify your smoking, I'm sure that you do enjoy smoking, that's up to you. If I get lung cancer through passive smoking, it's hardly going to help me by bitching about all the smokers, better that I don't get lung cancer. It seems a shame that most smokers are oblivious to all this and have no consideration for their fellow life forms.

Ben - There is another reason why I like smoking. Smokers are more fun and considerably better company.

be happpy in smoker company, but beware not to bother other with it.
no more "oh my rights are violated", because i can not smoke somewhere. smokers are most egotistic people. they smoke anywhere and bite their rights towards you if make comment!

about food addiction one very big difference is that smokers blow a killing smoke in some ones longs!

face the facts your enjoyment is a kiler!

Moonglum, I had no idea that the reaction to cigarette smoke could be so intense, and I am sure that most smokers don't either.

I never ever smoke in the houses of non-smokers, even if they tell me I can. And most smokers I know behave in the same way.

Which meet was it? I was certainly unaware of any distinction between the rooms in any of the meets I have been to. If I had been, and if I was smoking at the time, I would not have smoked in the non-smoking room.

I work abroad a lot, and it is very noticable that in Germany for instance there is a lot more smoking in restaurants and other public places. I have sat through a 3 hour business meeting with two guys smoking pipes. Definitely unpleasant.

Let's face it. There is a difference between your situation (and that of Miss quixotic) and the prima donna attitudes of many non-smokers which is like the over-fastidiousness of many younger vegetarians. Self-righteous affectation is unpleasant wherever you find it. Your situation is not an affectation, but you may be - er - tarred with the same brush.

I have a similar unrelated problem in social situations. I am wheat and lactose intolerant, and when I am at home I am a vegetarian. I was at a buffet the other day where every single thing served presumably excepting the mayonnaise included wheat, and everything had either meat or prawns in it. So I have a strong sympathy for your difficulties in social situations.

The problem is that it is hard to distinguish between allergies and mere dislike. I can eat wheat and dairy products - I don't go into anaphylactic shock - but it damages my gut, my immune system, and my stamina levels. As a result I tell people I am visiting, but I do not make a big deal of it in pubs or restaurants. You would not believe the number of Chicken Ceasar salads, no crutons and no parmesan, that I have eaten in my time.

Ben

No Pheloxi, my enjoyment is not a killer.

As I have indicated, I am careful to behave in such a way that is is not a killer. I have never in my life said that my rights are violated by not being able to smoke.

I am not responsible for the way that other people behave, or what they say.

Ben

You don't CHOOSE addiction. I started smoking when I was 16, and too young and callow and ignorant to know better. I knew it was unhealthy even 30 years ago, although it was not considered as antisocial then as now, but what the hell - I was 16 and I thought I was immortal and invulnerable, and I though it made me look cool. I also happened to enjoy it.

I also thought I could give up anytime I wanted - and I was wrong. I became addicted. The whole point about addiction, pheloxi, is that it is difficult to break. It sounds as though you are lucky enough never to have suffered an addiction, but when a smoker (certainly a heavy one as I was) tries to stop, they suffer cravings and withdrawal symptoms. I tried to give up lots of times, but I kept failing. I knew that giving up was the only sensible option, I knew it would save me hundreds of pounds, I knew the damage I was doing to my health - but I wanted a cigarette SO much - just one won't do any harm - and that way lies disaster.

I eventually succeeded in giving up 3 years ago (just a couple of cigars a year now - and I put them out if it bothers anybody), and am delighted that I did. It doesn't bother me that other people still smoke - if they want to stop they have my support, but they must follow their own path.

ben ...behave in such a way that is is not a killer...

this most ridicules remark you made about smoking.

it is same as that a dog never bites.

you remark sound like smoke advert from 40s - 50s
and
you sound like Mr Clinton "I did not inhale".

before you had some credit Ben, but now I am not sure if you just another cliche.

Captain Kebab - I understand about 30 yrs ago, but people now know how bad it is should not start smoking.

a recent reseach showed that more women die of longcancer, than men, because more more women started smoking last few years.

I am too a vegetarian, this is due also to reduced stamina levels, so I understand some of your plight, however smoking triggers physical problems, it affects my lungs in a drastic way, and therefore I do hold strong, entrenched views, Sorry if I have become aggressive, however one member wrote that the psychological patterns are the same, may I say they are not, I have conducted extensive research into several eating disorders, the fact is that smoking, is an addiction, definitionally no such addiction can arise from eating food, nicotine is addictive, it is a physical need, and yet the need to eat is physical, but when it merges into obesity, the need is psychological, as overeating is due to negative past experiences. I am against smoking, however I do believe in free choice, and despite my objections it is the choice of the individual.

pheloxi* - I believe Ben read your previous post in the same way I did - that smoking kills other people. I don't believe she was denying its effect on her own health.

I'm not sure why I'm speaking for Ben, except that despite not smoking, like many of the smokers here I'm finding your argument somewhat overstated (along with those of some of the other anti-smokers). Basically, I'm not surprised that you put people on the defensive.

One thing I will agree with, though, is that it's a pain in the arse having to run a gauntlet of smoke outside a non-smoking building.

You have some interesting ideas about the costs of health care. Yes, a smoker dying of disease x,y or z costs money. But so does the non smoker dying of disease p, q or r. There are no recurrent savings to be made to the Health Service by people giving up smoking. I know this because health care costing is what I do for a living.

The argument that driving up the costs of cigarettes through taxation is of benefit rather falls down unless the rest of Europe follows the same policy, which doesn't seem very likely from where I'm sitting. The work around solution that smokers will use is smuggling the stuff. Now tobacco smuggling benefits only the smuggler and the comsumer. The general public, including the smoker, takes no benefit from the tax revenue (unless of course they're a member of Belgium's general public.)

The interesting thing about the smuggling of cigarettes is that it is now so widespread, and almost 'respectable', that 'I thought it was cigarettes' has become the de facto defence of cannabis importers.

Moonglum. Was it the meet back in January where you had problems with the tobacco smoke? If so, then it isn't really us smokers fault that the downstairs room was full of smoke, the landlord didn't open the upstairs 'smoking' area for a couple of hours into the evening. Plus there was no ventilation switched on anywhere in the building. I'm sorry of it was a problem for you.

Pheloxi, you are right, that was a very badly worded comment.

I am careful never to smoke near people who object.

If someone objects, I do not smoke near them. If I am with a non-smoker who does not mind me smoking, I pay attention to the way that the draft is blowing and will change seats so that the smoke does not go near them. I never ever smoke when anyone at the same table is eating. I repeat, and will do so until my heart bleeds wine, that I take pains not to annoy or inconvenience people with any of my behaviour, and that includes smoking. I am not a saint, and I can be selfish, but it is - usually - unintentional.

Oh, and of course I am a cliche, we all are. It is a symptom of our shared humanity. There is, after all, nothing new under the sun.



Miss quixotic, you are not entirely right about food. I was careful to distinguish between food addictions based around weight-gain and food addictions based around intolerances. The term 'food intolerance' covers a variety of reactions to food. Some are true allergies and trigger reactions such as rashes, inflamation, vomiting, or anaphylactic shock, and I am blessed not to suffer from any of those.

Other food intolerances trigger an immune response. These are typically wheat, dairy products and chocolate, though there are others - these are the food intolerances which are sometimes associated with migraines.

When the immune-response to food is constantly being triggered by the presence of that food in the diet the body over-compensates and the result is felt as a craving. It is a reasonably well-known phenonemon that people who have food intolerances will crave that food if they are eating it irregularly, but will lose those cravings if they cut the food out completely.

So the long and the short of it is that some food-stuffs are addictive. Nicotine is one of the most strongly addictive substances available, more physically addictive than heroin, for example. So the physical addiction to food-stuffs is typically considerably less than the physical addiction to nicotine.

However, I maintain that some of the psychological responses are the same. Both are associated with comfort and stress management, both are associated with self-image, both have elements of peer pressure, both require that - perpetrator? - ignores the fact that thay cause diseases which maim, disable and kill. And so on. The difference of course is that if I eat a cheesecake it will not harm you.

However, you have rightly pointed out that this thread is not about food-addictions, and I only introduce them where they are relevant.



The question of why people start smoking is an interesting one. I read recently that in the UK the rate of up-take of smoking among teenagers is finally falling. There is a corresponding increase in the up-take of mobile phones among the same group.

Why?

Its cool.

a cliche called Ben

Hi Ben, Hi Grey-Desk

The meet was the last winter meet. Myself and Kaz arrived a bit late, say 8:00pm for sake of arguement. By previous arrangement, the upstairs bar was declared smoking and the lower bar non-smoking. Despite both bars being open when we arrived, people were clearly still smoking in the alleged non-smoking area. One person lit up a cigar right next to me.

If the smoking bar is not open yet, why not have a chat with the barman to open it or if you are absolutely desparate for a fix, go outside. Why did you feel justified in lighting up where you stood?

On the health point of view, I understand that the average cigarette produces over thirty products of combustion, including carbon monoxide and various sulphur compounds. Nictotine itself has not been proved to have any affect apart from increase adrenaline (I think), it's the other particulates that cause the problem. Whether the smoke is "actively" taken in or "passively" taken in, the chemicals remain dangerous. So, yes, the smoking habit has very strong ties to heart and lung diseases.

Rather you than me.

Hiya Moonglum

remember how I told you all about Ben, and how I would love to meet up with her and talk Buddhism?

well after her post 85 'Smokers are more fun and considerably better company' I know I would be wasting her time. Being a non-smoker and all.

I sometimes wonder if being upset at the attitudes of the smokers on this site, is as bad for my health as passive smoking? In which case maybe its time to go.

And note to Ben, now I understand why you don't get on with the FWBO, Buddhism is all about compassion and tolerance isn't it?