h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Xantic, I saw the article reprinted in the Fortean Times, although I think it may have originated in the Lancet. The idea was that some substances, in extreme dilution only, exhibited a "molecular clumping" effect where two or three molecules would clump together and stick to one another. These "meta-molecules" had different active properties to the original substance, and the article went on to suggest that this could be the mechanism behind homeopathy. The meta-molecules only formed under extreme dilution with very pure water; exactly the same conditions of preparation that homeopathists have always insisted upon in order for homeopathic solutions to form an effective treatment.

I'll have to go read that article, it does sound interesting.

Some time ago, New Scientist published a piece entitled "Weird water", if I remember correctly. It described how complex structures of water molecules can and do exist. Speculation: if such structures exist, this could be the basis of a scientific explanation of how homeopathy works. It would also explain why boiling homeopathic preparations could destroy their efficacy, and why certain other substances (e.g. peppermint in toothpaste) can stop them from working.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Okay, the last one was a bit far fetched.

I deal with the actions of drugs day in day out and have a fair idea at the plausable concentration range at which things are biologically active. Even the molecular clumping sounds unlikely to be concentrated enough to activate receptors (though I admit I dont know the numbers, so will have an open mind on this). Also if the water retained the shape or clumped the molecule then surely we'd all be high as kites from the trace amounts of drugs found in our water supply (which are still at higher concentrations than those used in homeopathy).

As to possible mechanisms, I admit immediately that I'm speculating, and my knowledge of biology is no greater than the 'average' layman.

However, many people are convinced they get some benefit from homeopathy. The placebo effect is now well known - and might be a significant contributor - but did you know about the 'nocebo' effect? I didn't until very recently. In short: in a group of women with no significant medical differences, the incidence of heart disease was four times higher for those who believed they might get heart disease. Self-fulfilling prophecies - but how? Isn't it also true that when people have suffered *serious* illness, their recovery is highly dependent on whether they *want* to recover?

Yes, this is just me rambling, but about matters that could possibly have some bearing on homeopathy. Any comments?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Yep, wether you live or die depends very much on if you want to. If you got a fatal disease and you don't have a strong will to live, your chances will be bad.

"In short: in a group of women with no significant medical differences, the incidence of heart disease was four times higher for those who believed they might get heart disease."

How about the alternative phrasing
"In a group of women with apparently similar risk factors for heart disease, there was a correlation between having (presumably mild?) heart disease without consciously knowing it, and having a conscious fear of developing heart disease in the future."

It might depend which way you look at the causality - is it possible that those with early heart disease knew something was wrong subconsciously?

There was a study on a ceremoney in South Americs I believe it was. It is a ceremony where the older women in the community plays a big part. If you looked at the average death numbers for old women during the years, you could see they went down during that period. Probably because the old women suddenly had something to live for.

Hmmm... from that article in the guardian:

'Benveniste believes he already knows what constitutes the water-memory effect and claims to be able to record and transmit the "signals" of biochemical substances around the world via the internet. These, he claims, cause changes in biological tissues as if the substance was actually present.'

Sounds plain silly to me...

I would be fascinated, though, to hear any physical explanation for the 'water-memory effect'... it's hard to think of anything less likely to remember things than a jumble of randomly organised, constantly moving molecules...

Ah well. As long as there are alternative, unproven treatments available, people will pay good money to use them...

Perhaps a telling statement about scientific medicine? Hmm. Or maybe just about people in general... probably a bit of both.

Aha, some suggestions... you'd think a seasoned h2g2er like me would manage to read all the posts before replying

I agree with ali1kinobe on that one, though... doesn't sound massively plausible...

Potholer wonders <> They said not, but I suggest you Google for "nocebo", and select the newspaper article (NYT?) from around the end of last month. I would hate to misinterpret what they said because of *my* lack of understanding.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Pattern-chaser, on the "placebo / nocebo" effects, there was a researcher on the "Today" programme (BBC Radio 4 breakfast show in the UK) who said that his lab had discovered the strongest anti-cancer agent yet tested was... Serotonin!*

So in cancer treatment at least, the placebo effect, "good mental attitude" or just plain positive thinking can all just be looked on as ways of describing a happy patient whose brain is naturally secreting serotonin, which in turn is having a measurable medical affect on their tumors!

(* a neurotransmitter used in the regulation of cyclic bodily processes, the production of which is strongly connected to "mood")

I first started going to a homeopath a couple of years ago because of tiredness and lack of energy.

I had an in-depth first consultation lasting an hour. I was given remedies and the first noticeable difference was that it put my periods on track - they used to be irregular and over 40 days betweem them. They've been regular and normally spaced ever since.

This wasn't a result I was expecting, but, boy, was I impressed.

Interesting article, Peet, thanks!

Hmm. Hate to be sceptical, but, that's what I do

Surely one of the first requirements in testing a treatment is that you know what it's supposed to *do*... otherwise, you can just pick up on any positive effect that turns up, and assign that to it...

Well I've lost count of the numbers of appointments I had with doctors trying to sort out my periods! I'd given up. I had mentioned it to the homeopath - in an hour, you can cover a lot, you know.

Homeopathy is a also holistic treatment.

So, continue to be sceptical ... you tell me why the doctors failed and it took *one treatment* by the homeopath to put right!

Hmmm. Were there any other changes that happened at the same time? New job? Change in diet? Less stress for some reason, maybe?

I take it there's no dispute that some kind of *physical* cure took place? So, what if the homeopathist was just a modern-day witch doctor, and the cure was actually implemented by the patient? I'm not saying that's so, or that it's not. But a cure's a cure, eh? *That's* empirical evidence, I think. The Very Best sort of evidence.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

hmm, as a person who has been given some experance in *some* alternitive treaments, I tend to think that alot of it is just mind over whats the matter. for some reason I think even your subconcouse can pick up on some enviomentle things. apart from that in the animal experiments is was never mentioned whether the extra antention to the animals made any difrence. and some times we all need to think that were being looked after.

-- DoctorMO --

Less stress? No - more, in fact. Change of diet? No - (although I had become a vegetarian three years earlier, however I don't think that counts).

Mind over matter? I wasn't expecting such dramatic results and my conscious thoughts were about other parts of the presenting problem. However, I do think that there's something inmind over matter, including the homeopath's belief in what s/hes doing and the patient's belief in the homeopath.

I believe mental attitude has a great deal to do with it.

Studies in America have shown that heart disease patients who are given a support group and taught how to meditate live twice as long as those not given that support. Doctors were expecting that stress levels would go down, but the increased longeivity was a complete surprise. Now if there was a drug that gave such results,everyone would be demanding it!