h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The difference with suicide bombers, and others who kill themselves for a cause, is that it is only those on the receiving end who consider it to be suicide. To them it is martyrdom. So strictly speaking, they are not suicide bombers, but martyrs. They are not killing themselves out of lack of hope and dreams, but instead that they believe that the sacrifice of their life will acheive a greater good. Kamikaze comes into a similar bracket.

Just because 'we' put the word suicide into the term doesn't mean it is actually suicide. It is just spun that way to provide a pejorative viewpoint on the action. There is no way any 'evil empire' is going to accord those who pursue these actions the accolade of martyrdom.

I can't help thinking that when a suicide bomber gets to paradise, he finds that the 72 virgins he meets are all (a) male, and (b) previous suicide bombers.

What these kids need to do is get laid, not blow themsleves up.

RF

There's also the point that this is the only life you know for certain that there is; so things would have to be pretty desperate to end it in favour of nothing.

The same could applied to all those military 'heroes' who laid down their lives for the greatness of the whichever empire, clan or religion they fought for? They killed themselves through their actions or inactions, but we don't term them suicides.

It could be argued that joining the military in a combative role is tantamount to suicide.

I agree with Tsu Doh Nimh that the term 'suicide bomber' is a misnomer, at least from the point of view of the bomber (who sees himself as a martyr rather than a 'suicide case'). Even though they have, in fact, committed suicide by killing themselves along with others.

Dictionary definitions of suicide:

1. the act or an instance of killing oneself intentionally.
2. the self-inflicted ruin of one's own prospects or interests (financial suicide)
3. reckless, extremely dangerous action (a suicide mission)
4. undertaking an action in the knowledge that it will result in the death of the person performing it in order that maximum damage may be inflicted on an enemy (suicide bomber)


Meanwhile, I agree with Mrs Bojangles that it would be very hard to determine whether either religious or non-religious people might be more 'prone' to commit suicide as there are so many different personal variables that come into play.

I think in most cases committing suicide requires someone to be both in a state of extreme depression and yet be highly motivated, which is almost a contradiction in terms. To me this would indicate that either a major crisis or a very prolonged period of suffering would supply the final motivation. Not sure how religion would fit into this.


az

It is clear then that there are at least two forms of suicide. One is the classic form that most people would understand upon hearing the term, that of the depressive who has had enough. They are most likely not highly motivated at all, not even by the things most dear to them.
The second is technically suicide, where a person undertakes a course of action which will end in their own death, but where the purpose is to serve a different aim. This class are unlikely to be depressed but are likely to be highly motivated.
The person who stands in front of his child to prevent them being crushed by a car is strictly speaking suicidal but they are not depressive, but highly motivated to protect their child.

I am afraid this thread is now glorifying terrorism. Please wait by your computers until the secret police can come and dissappear you. Thank you.
BCNU - Crescent

Why highly motivated?

There are also in some cultures they would commit suicide rather than be killed by the enemy as an act of defiance. And then there are those who thinks suicide attempts are a call for help, rather than someone trying to kill themselves.

Presuming you were replying to my term 'highly motivated', Xanatic, simply because it requires a certain amount of motivation to actually kill oneself, rather than just continue suffering.

And I was mostly talking about western culture stuff. Yes, in some cultures suicide is seen quite differently.

Back in ancient Rome, a person charged with an offense that would normally end up with execution would sometimes be allowed to do the 'honourable thing' and fall on their own sword. If they did this then their heirs would still be allowed to inherit their properties. If they didn't then they would be publicly executed (which was apparently a very 'shameful' way to go back then) and their properties would be confiscated by the Empire.

So allowing someone the choice of suicide was seen back then as leniency and was usually only granted to those who had previously been important in the Senate.


az

Highly motivated because suicide is not a survival trait. Taking your own life is not a natural thing to do. To go against the inbuilt survival mechanisms animals have requires a high degree of leverage, or motivation. In cultures where ritual suicide is accepted, the motivation comes from what will happen to you either in the afterlife, or to your descendants in this life.

Suicide as a cry for help is a complex area to discuss. Any discussion of it must take into account the emotional effects on the individual, who has just survived a near death experience, and those around them who will be equally emotional as a loved one has just nearly died. In these situations rationality is not very prevalent.
Any discussion in these areas is likely to offend and antagonise those who have had these experiences since it will call into question their own internal rationalisation of events and causes and may provide answers which they may well not like.

Given the rather nasty methods used to execute criminals in ancient Rome, falling on your sword probably was the easy option

True, that's why being given this option was considered to be shown lenience. Also, as previously stated, your family would also be allowed to live and inherit your properties.


az

'considered to be having been shown lenience'

az

I think it is grossly unfair to lump people who train to be soldiers, airmen etc... and AIM TO SURVIVE combat with people who take over doses.

There is also a clear difference between your classic "my life is hopeless and I should end it" and those who think "people X are wicked and I will strap a bomb to myself to punish them and receive my reward in heaven" Both the end result and the motivation are different. Suicide does not include murdering other people into the bargain in my book.

I think that religious people are more likely to kill themselves because they in many cases think they will get another crack at life. Hinduism clasically promotes the sucide of wives if their wives die. The Aztec prctised voluntary sacrifice and the Egyptians used to have them selves killed so they could be entombed with their masters or husbands.

Atheists do believe that we are alone in the universe and that life has no greater meaning or purpose but we have , friends who take us to tapas bars, sport, porn, religious people to laugh at and really who needs anythingelse?

one love

>>Atheists do believe that we are alone in the universe and that life has no greater meaning or purpose but we have , friends who take us to tapas bars, sport, porn, religious people to laugh at and really who needs anythingelse?<<

Hey blicky I knew one day we'd begin to get on! Though I'd probably call myself agnostic.

I love good food, Arsenal, and sex, but most of all humour and sharing these with others!

Pah, another perfect woman ruined by an affiliation to the Gooners.

perfect?

I had thought the affiliation with the gooners was the only perfect thing about me!

I'd happilay share everything you mentioned, but not Arsenal. You'd have them all to yourself! (...and you're probably thinking that's a *good* thing )

RF

<>

Until, the begining of last year, I had no personal experience of this issue at all. Then I did.

Someone committing suicide may seem, especially to surviving family, to have been quite rational and cold-blooded about it, hence the anger family and friends commonly feel. *But by definition* the suicide is not rational at all. They are enmeshed in mental health problems, and they are anything but rational, no matter how calm their preparations may seem. The person may have been 'educated' since childhood about what to do, seek help, don't kill yourself, and yet they are incapable of the degree of hope that seeking help requires.

Yet, the suicide doesn't actually want to die! They just want to get away from an intolerable situation, they actually want a better life, whether or not they think they are going to get one. Lacking the hope of improving the life they have got, they opt to get away from it.

'Suicide' bombers are in a different category. I'd put them in with Captain Oates, or Yuri Gagarin, both of whom 'committed suicide' passively, in Oates' case, for the sake of others... Kamikaze pilots were the same.
I learned on another board, that the suicide bomber tactic was originated by the Tamil Tigers, and most suicide bombers are not actually Muslim at all. BTW, does anyone have a theory as to why the media call *every* recent terrorist bombing, a suicide bombing, even when it is manifestly not? The recent Bali bombings are cases in point -
and so, it seems, were the London bombings. (The bombers died, yes, but there's plenty of evidence that they neither expected nor intended to).In the case of the Bali bombings, no perpetators were even present!

Americans, and many New Zealanders, believe that the Madrid bombings were suicide bombings, but they weren't.