h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Oh that's *definitely* true.

I am not currently a full vegetarian, but have been at different periods of my life. My reasoning was (yes, I have succumbed to the taste of a good steak!) was ethical, especially where I live (South America) there are no humane standards applied at slaughter houses-the animals suffer. Also, the raising of beef especially in the Amazon Basin leads to rampant deforestation, Brazil and other countries in the region continue to promote clearing of rainforest for pasture. The other is health, since I rarely eat red meat now (mostly fish and chicken) I feel the after effects of that coveted steak for a couple of days afterward, can't be doing good things for my body!

Strider25

I confess to generalising a bit. It seems preferable to getting personal. I didn't say people who feel pity for animals are better people. Some may be but I make no such judgement. As Orcus rightly pointed out, pity is a luxury that not everybody can afford.

I also value my fellow human beings. It grieves me that so many of them are suffering terrible hardship all over the world. I feel sympathy for them because I can imagine what it might feel like to be hungry, blind, crippled, cold, uncared for. I can empathise. What I can't do is limit my empathy just to members my own family, race, nation or species - as would seem to be more natural, to some people. I don't consider animals to be stupid or useless. In fact it would be extraordinary if I valued people based only on my estimate of their IQ or how useful they were to me.

You seem to be saying that humans are important because you are human and animals are unimportant because they are not human. Is that right? Is that your view? If I've got that wrong, perhaps you could provide a better explanation of why you think our species alone is worthy of care and respect.

The fact that you found part of my post laughable didn't cause me any offence, just a bit of consternation. I've had another read of the post to see if it really looked as though I was having a dig at all omnivores. I can't see how you could have come away with that impression. I was talking specifically about conversations with my friends at work (yes they are my friends - we just agree to disagree) and comparing those discussions to this one. I've been an omnivore all my life up to a couple of days ago. Didn't you notice that? And I was defending myself against their accusations that just seemed a bit rich in view of the facts, in any case.

Sorry, I think I may have misinterpreted a bit. I'm glad we haven't fallen out

I'm afraid I have had a bad experience in the past as I have an ex-girlfriend who was a rather large extremist on the subject (wanted to join the ALF!). She most certainly did get holier than thou at me which really annoyed me. It seemed as long as she cared about animals anything else she did was OK no matter who it hurt etc. (You can tell I still love her can't you ).

I have to confess actually that I have a friend who turned vegetarian quite recently and in several debates people were accusing her of hypocrisy when she said she cared about animal. Ie people were saying things like "but your shoes are made of leather"

Her point was that at least she was doing *something*. I can handle that, that is the best comment I've heard when non-veggies are talkign about hypocrisy

You've always seemed like a very reasonable chap judging from your post that I've come across. I extend my sympathy to you too Extremists aren't a bundle of laughs and they must be hell to live with.

Maybe you should check out the figures in South East Asia - there are plenty of vegetarians there!

I had pondered on the idea of vegetarianism for ethical reasons for quite a while and didn't believe I would be able to go with out bacon butties, so didn't give it a go until, I went to glastonbury festival in '92. The main reasons were to see if I could last the week without succumbing to a hog roast and closely linked I did not want to spend the festival in the 'rather nice facilities' with food poisoning, which has happened at many previous festies.
It was incredibly easy not eating meat at glasters as there was an amazing variety of tasty veggie/vegan food available.
Had no problems staying as a veggie afterwards, even when people tempted me with bacon butties as a hangover cure, as I'd found out quite a few more good reasons for staying veggie, many of which are listed above!

Z.

"You seem to be saying that humans are important because you are human and animals are unimportant because they are not human. Is that right? Is that your view? If I've got that wrong, perhaps you could provide a better explanation of why you think our species alone is worthy of care and respect." - That's mostly rhetoric, since I don't believe I said or implied any of this. This is what I have been saying...

The animals we raise for food cannot survive in the wild, with the exceptions of seafood. They are not a part of the ecosystem. They were bred by humans, for humans. Other animals do have worth, for their roles in the maintenance of nature, fulfilling their places in the food chain. Cattle do not maintain nature... their food is provided by man, for the express purpose of providing food *for* man. And as for cruelties, they're not particularly intelligent animals. They have almost no self-awareness. People stopped eating horses when they discovered how intelligent and self-aware they are. How intelligent is a sheep? How self-aware is a cow? Are they as aware of their horrible mistreatment as we are?

Well, I´m currently trying to find the articles I´ve read about plants feeling pain. When I know more I will put it here.

Cows can survive in the wild, we haven´t changed them that much. The only problem would be if nobody milked them, the milk would perhaps make the utter burst. Seriously. And I don´t know how good they are at protecting themselves from predators. Sheep would probably not handle predators very well, so not much chance in the wild. And since nobody cut their wool they would have major overheating problems.

About intelligence, I don´t think eating animals have anything to do with intelligence. We don´t eat cats and dogs because we feel sympathy with them, as we have them as pets. We don´t eat horses because we used them for the army and for work, so that wouldn´t have been practical. We don´t eat rats becasue they´re filled with bacterias. We do eat cows, pigs and birds though. And since it has been shown pigs are smarter than dogs, if it was a matter of intelligence we should stop eating them as well.

When it comes to self-awareness please go to the "being aware" thread and tell me what you mean by it. Personally I think it doesn´t matter about an animals intelligence(with a few exceptions), as long as it can feel pain.

The only problem with mistreating(besides mistreating themselves) is when people humanize the cows too much. Demand that the farmers play music for them and such. Just because we like some things doesn´t mean the animals like them.

Some info Xantic on your limited knowledge on animals,
cows udders woudn't burst in the wild as they only start producing milk after calving, there would be a calf or two around to keep emptying the udders which dry up after 9-12 months.
Sheep moult there wool when the seasons start getting warm, but we tend to shear them before this happens as it's a lot easier for us than gathering wool from the hillsides, also this is a bit rough on the sheep who don't like the sudden shock of having there jumpers removed when it's still a bit nippy at night!

I've been following this thread from the beginning (with only a few postings missed!) and it seems to me that a lot of people are arguing from a defensive viewpoint, on both sides. If I do or don't eat meat, I should not (and do not) view it as a condemnation of me, personally. Maybe people should take a more dispassionate position to this discussion; it is an important one, on several fronts, IMHO.

I am diabetic, with all the risks attendent to that disease. It makes me more susceptible to heart disease, increasing overweight, and stroke (already had a teeny one -- not fun). Eating meat also increases my risk for this, so I have been cutting back on meat for the last 12 years or more. When I told my nurse practitioner about becoming completely veggie, she told me that she was worried that I would unbalance my diet with a purely vegetarian diet. I decided to continue on my veggie path anyway, (though not totally there yet!), and have increased my protein intake at the same time. Food combining, mixing legumes and grains, is an effective method; just ask the people of India. I feel I am increasing my health as I cut back more and more. I was raised in the "meat and potatoes" belt of the US and I may never be able to give up meat completely, but I think any progress I make is good for a lot of reasons.

I am also concerned with the safety of the food supply. While contamination of the non-meat sources of food happens, it is more likely to take a nastier turn if meat is tainted (ecoli, salmonella, listeriosis, botchulism). Storage problems, the way the meat animals are raised, and the chances for spread of the contamination due to overcrowding are just some of the issues.

My personal viewpoint is that there are already too many humans on this planet, and to feed us all would be a little easier if we practised a little more birth control. Then we wouldn't need to raise so many animals, we wouldn't need to overcrowd them as they are raised, and they would be healthier and more comfortable in their lives before they are killed. Way I see it, it took us maybe a million years to increase our chances of survival by eating meat, and now that our survival as a species is no longer at doubt (from starvation anyway) it'll take almost that long to quit it.

Sorry for the excessive typing!!

SC

Xanatic, it's definitely healthier to be a vegetarian (actually a vegan, since dairy products are really bad for ya too). The vitamin A you mentioned is actually most plentiful in vegetables (carrots are the most known source, but pretty much any other veggie or grain has it to some degree.) The only vitimin that is not readily available to the complete vegan (no animal products whatsoever) is B12. And B12 actually comes from a bacteria (not meat itself). But because of our cleaning standards it's usually destroyed in veggies. But a simple (vegan) supplement, a few times a year, will take care of any possible deficiency. You also mentioned protein, but that, too, is quite plentiful in seeds, nuts, and legumes, as well as some other veggie items like potatoes.

As for veganism being healthier than meat eating (in humans at least), there are just so many reasons, I couldn't possibly begin to list them. But suffice it to say, for any one possible negative health effect of being an herbivore, there are 30 positive ones. Everything from lower cholesterol, to a vastly lower risk of heart disease, to more energy, to less risk of osteoperosis (excfess protein inhibits vitimin D absorbtion). If you are really interested in finding out more, I'd suggest reading the book Diet for a New America, or anything by Dr. Neal Barnard.

As for the original question of why be a vegetarian? Hmmmm. Well, I can't imagine why anyone would not want to be. Eating animals is just utterly nasty. And our bodies weren't designed to eat them, except in starvation situations. (If you don't believe me, just make a simple, medical comparison between the average carnivore's intestine and the average herbivore's. You'll notice that a human's digestive system hangs well towards the herbivore side.)

Ok, I guess that's enough preaching for now. (I only just now discovered the new BBC version of H2G2, and on the very first conversation I stumble onto is one I have lots to say! Yay for H2G2.)

Sorry folks, for the repeated subjects. I didn't realize that there were more PAGES to the conversation! I'm really not used to this kind of linear posting style. Bear with me.

I do have one further comment (after reading the rest of the pages of posts):

In response to the claim that plants can feel pain, all I can say, is that even if this were true, being a vegetarian would certainly cause fewer plants to be killed than being an omnivore. (Since it takes something like 20 pounds of plant matter to make one pound of meat.)

Plus humans are, undeniably, designed to eat vegetation. While it is definitely debatable (as we've seen in this thread) as to whether or not we are designed to eat meat.

You're right about people getting too heated when they discuss these sorts of issues SpaceCadette. I'm no psychologist but I wonder if it's part of human nature to be almost driven to divide up into tribe-like groups. We seem to be able to use a whole range of excuses: religion, politics, class, race, sport, diet ...

It's a shame. It's as though each side wants the other side to be more extreme than they really are because they need some villain to kick against.

So much for the sheep survival theory... I saw an interview just this week with one of my favorite sports stars, Los Angeles Kings winger Luc Robitaille. He was talking about his aborted attempt at farming, and how completely incompetent he was at it. In the second year, he forgot to shear the sheep. They died.

I'm not a vegetarian, although I enjoy vegetarian food. I currently choose to eat meat- this might change, might not. I used to work in a slaughterhouse for pigs. At 6am, and around 3pm they arrived- squealing in terror. They had an obvious awareness that all was not at all well. Few who worked at the factory doubted this- so lets not bother going down the tiresome road of animals and what they feel/know etc. They obviously feel plently- especially when the jowler doesn't shock them properly before he slits their throats (or as I once witnessed, deliberately didn't shock a pig). As to what they know we cannot have a clue now can we. Why is it that vegetarians are considered "extremist" for choosing what they eat? The media perpetually give the impression of vegetarians as hippies with 20 kids, living in a tent off the M25, occasionally taking part in a spot of bombing or rioting. The vegetarians I know are intelligent, sane (well- mostly), well adjusted people who just don't want to eat meat. End of story. I find it ironic that those who accuse veggies of extremism shout so loudly and blindly, that they don't realise quite how extreme they are to others.

If you are referring to my earlier posting I was referring to an individual person, not vegetarians in general. She would have loved to join the ALF (animal liberation front) who are a bunch of terrorists imho. They are definite extremists I reckon. Please don't take my posting out of context

No, really- had nothing to do with what you said- my posting was a societal example- I'm not into digging people out- and if I did, I would address them personally. Hope thats cleared things up.

OK, sorry.

In my experience, it is almost impossible to have a dispassionate debate about this subject as its so emotionally charged on both sides, we'll see what happens further on this thread...