h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The argument is made even greyer by the changing usage and dilution of some words.
"Will" as apposed to "shall" is the older argument. Will in its older sense is an act of will. "Will you?" was equated with "Do you want to?"
"Shall you?" is much more about, "Is it going to be done - whether you want to or not?"
My experience now is it's much more about pleases and thank yous than other wording. "Would you be so kind as to look at this?" gets a different response to "Look at this."

Shall we.

If there is some explainable difference between would and will, I'd certainly like to hear it.

I understand that 'would' is used to indicate certain conditions that need to be met (if I had a boat I WOULD cross the river). Otherwise I simply say I 'will' cross.

But there appears to be in your world, some social stigmata attaching great import to a proper choice. I will await your response. I would answer carefully if I was you.


~jwf~

simulpost

>> But we need to know whom to hang! <<


Try me.
That simulpost of mine is going to be very confusing if anyone thinks I'm responding to you and not to the same posting you were (responding to).
Sorry to get in the way vestboy.
And you've intuitively answered my question,
shall, will, would, should, it's all clear to me now.
Carry on.

peace
~jwf~

explainable difference between would and will
and i've replied to simlu post
to my interputation
would "would" indicate a repeat performence or past actions
whereas or in this case whereupon
will "will" indicate a itention for a first occassion
But then again since they chopped the "er" off of with(er) and the "hest" of will(hest), though tarry with me yon doth meadowe.
I dont know now if i am comeing or going.

"will you fix it?"
"would you fix it?"

There is a definite difference to these 'in my world'. This is, I think, specifically in reference to communicating with someone one does not know that well and who could well be awkward and delay or refuse the action. Oh, and communicating via email as well.
To say 'will you' implies a degree of expectation that the person won't do it and thus has a negative connotation. It comes across, to me anyway, as somewhat peremptory and demanding. A sense that the action is known and the requirement for it is known but that the person in question may decide not to bother with it. Also along the lines of 'Are you going to' which implies '...or not?'
'would you' has no such negative connotation and, in being more informal, is more friendly and social. Obviously in the spoken word inflection can convey your meaning. It has no such overtones and is, perhaps, more 'wooly' and less demanding. More along the lines of 'do you mind' and so forth. Similar to 'could you?' which implies 'is it possible for you ?'.

Interestingly the person who originated the issue 'in my world' has spent sometime working in the USA and my colleague feels that this is where they picked up the particulart phrasing.

Sorry to back up a bit, but

I concur with DepressedYak that "yolk of eggs is white" is correct, yolk here being a mass noun (like butter).

And "a number of" gives a plural verb simply because number is not a collective noun, but is rather an unspecified plural quantity.

Noggin

The only place where I've seen "shall" used recently is on a sign in Jesus College, Cambridge along the lines of "Any bicycles left in the chimney shall be removed". That also, raises a completely different question about why they call a passage through a tower a chimney...

As for would and will, I don't know about other languages, but the French use the present conditional for polite requests as well as the English. I suppose "would" has an implied condition, along the lines of "If I were to ask very nicely, would you help me mow the lawn?" It also implies there may be valid excuses or reasons why it might not be possible, i.e. "Well, I would but..." whereas "will you" just requires a yes/no answer. So "would you" is asking whether something is possible as opposed to ascertaining someone's willingness.

Or perhaps not...

Will/would/shall
Will you mend the bike? - do you have the inclination to mend the bike? But now apparently, "Get on and mend the bike."
Would you mend the bike? - does, to me, imply conditions that may require further discussion.
E.g. 1 This bike has two flat tyres, half the spokes missing and the handlebar and saddle have both fallen off long ago. Is it worth mending?
E.g. 2 I've got three squealing tots to look after and would have great difficulty mending the bike so if you don't mind, please...

Shall you mend the bike? "This action of mending the bike. Are you going to do it or not?"

Drat, just thought of something else to throw in the pot. Again quite dated. The difference between will and shall. Marriage! Girl is pregnant, father has shotgun. "You shall marry the girl."
(aside)In law this is grounds for a later annulment.
"I will marry the girl," the groom giving consent.
"I shall marry the girl," the groom giving in to the inevitable.
"I would marry the girl," the groom giving notice that there is a reason not to but implies some regret.

"Shall you mend the bike?" may be correct, but it sounds . I think this usage has effectively been replaced by "will you..", "would you..." or "are you going to.."

In speech intonation tells you what's meant, but in writing care is obviously needed not to give the wrong impression.

Noggin

Spanish is similar.

Italian or German, please?

Spanish is similar.

Italian or German, please?


Eek! Sorry.

This is in reply Depressed Yak's post 8148.

The browser was having a tea break.

Hello everyone. Hope you don't mind that I haven't read the entire backlog.

Re: will and would

Whether to use would or will (modal auxilary verbs) depends on which 'function' is being used. Will is usually used to express a complete future certainty while would expresses a conditional certainty or possibility. Would can also be used to talk about past habits and is also used as the past form of will in indirect speech. Finally, would is used to make polite requests and offers (as a 'softer' form of will).

Shall is mostly used nowadays to make suggestions rather than to express a future certainty.

az

Hi AzYou must read entire backlog,will you though?, perhaps you can incorperate into english lesson, homework for your students

This is what comes of teaching people to teach English to forriners.

Personally I'm one of the old school. If it sounds right it *is* right.

Noggin

Oops, sorry if I came across too 'teacheryish' sounding. . .



az

Let's pioneer bringing back shall then! Shall we?

Here in Ireland we don't use "shall", no more than they do in the States. I gathered that "shall" implies "whether one wants to or not" and "will" implies will in the sense of willingness. This means they have opposite emphasis depending whether they are in the first or second person. But an English friend gave me an excellent example to use as a rule of thumb:

"I shall drown" said the shipwreck victim. "No one will save me!"

"I *will* drown" said the suicide. "No one *shall* save me!"

I like that example. I'd never really thought about what happens if you switch the 2 round.