h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I think some of these pronuciation changes are taking place because British people are so exposed to American english through television, film, music etc.

American english has thrown out some of the quirkier spellings and pronunciations in British english and are now exporting some of them back again, along with a few of their own. This isn't entirely bad IMO, it keeps the language alive...

*shudders at preeeeesentation*

k

Quick question. Should I say "Now that your palate is whetted..." or "Now that your palate is wetted..."?

I would go with "whetted" ...

Whet: to stimulate or sharpen eg whetted my appetite

Sorry, G, but I'd say neither! Although the word you're looking for is indeed 'whetted', I suggest it doesn't go with 'palate'.

'Palate' is merely the sense of taste (or the roof of your mouth). I understand 'whet' to mean to increase desire for something, which is why it goes so well with 'appetite'.

<>

...as well as retaining some of the older traditions and constructions from which we British have moved on. I was quite surprised when I learned this, although I suppose it should be obvious.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Preserved traditions such as 'whom' and the use of the subjunctive, which were obsolescent by the 17th century. One of the strengths of English has been the gradual removal of needless grammatical elements, such as gender and the case system (of nouns). Although ignored in general use, whom and the subjunctive have been preserved in Britain by grammar-bashers and newspaper editors, and now, under American influence, seem to be coming back, which is a shame - especially since they're often misused.

Oh, if you have any interest in Spanish, you might like to look at my Spanish Pronunciation entry, currently in Peer Review.

Thanks, K, but palate is the word I want. I am talking about tasting wine, so appetite is not really appropriate. I know that the phrase is "whet your appetite" but what is the equivalent for palate?

'Whet your palate' sounds fine to me. If in doubt, you've just invented it.

tempt the palate, delight the palate,...

"tantalize the taste-buds"

Jack, do you really think the subjunctive is obsolete? Doesn't it sound better to say "if I were to do this" rather than "if I was to do this"? Also, if you really think the latter is better, I would argue the change took place more recently than the 17th century! And I don't understand the comment about Americans re-introducing the subjunctive: in my experience they're more likely to use the indicative. Or are you referring to something broader than the conditional subjunctive?

Jack, did you really say 'obsolescent' so that you could catch somebody out, thinking you said 'obsolete'?

Jumping back to thoughts on strange plurals arising from the ten pound note, the men eating tiger and the hundred dollar misunderstanding...

My ear is always twitching discomfortedly at the variable plural of beer (around here - Nova Scotia). There seems no logic to the way the same person will switch from 'beer' to 'beers' with an 's'.
Is this sort of thing common anywhere else?


"I've only had three beer."
"Now really, how many beers have you had?"
"OK ..I had a dozen beers".
"What! No one can drink a dozen beer that quickly."



jwf

>>Jack, did you really say 'obsolescent' so that you could catch somebody out,
>>thinking you said 'obsolete'?

Well, that'll teach me not to read it carefully.

On the other hand, something that was obsolescent in the 17th century might reasonably be expected to be obsolete by the 21st, wouldn't you think?! So, what is it about the subjunctive that implies obsolescence? The fact that it's pretty much only used in the conditional, or do you have something else in mind?

jwf, In the UK and Ireland, up to recently you could not have beers, there was only beer which like air and sand was a substance. You could have a few pints of beer, some beer or just beer, but you never had a beer or two beers. Gradually the American term beers has caught on and now you can say "I would like a beer, please". Perhaps a similar process took place in Nova Scotia and it is some sort of race memory of this that makes people uncomfortable saying 12 beers, causing them to revert (incorrectly) to 12 beer.

trying to think back, possibly before 'a beer' became widespread in the UK, 'a bitter', or 'a lager' were acceptable.

'A beer' is only really useful where there isn't point discriminating about which beer to have - either in a private setting where there isn't any choice, when you're too drunk to care, or where all the beers available taste equally good, bad, or blandly indifferent.
(I'll leave it up to the reader to work out which setting may have inspired the US usage.)

Yes, the only time I would use the term is in two cases:

1. Let's go for a beer. Which type will be specified when we get to the pub, though friends and colleagues already know it will be Guinness.
2. If I'm in one of those really dreadful trendy places that only have bottled beer. They're all a lost cause, so I leave it up to someone else!

Since this is the BritEng thread, that really should say "I would only use the term in two cases" or "the only times...."

If I am quoting someone's text, but making my own additions, or selective deletions, what is the correct way to show what I've done?

If the original text is: "We can understand the concept of objectivity. We can formulate objective hypotheses. But we cannot objectively verify their truth in the real world, as our perception is not objective. So the pursuit of *objective* - certain - knowledge is pointless (although the search for *knowledge* is not)." I might quote from it as follows:

"We can understand the concept of objectivity. [...] But we cannot objectively verify [it] in the real world, as our perception is not objective. So the pursuit of *objective* [...] knowledge is pointless...."

Here, the "[...]" indicates elision, "[it]" shows where I had to change one or more words to retain the sense, and "...." indicates a deletion which ends the sentence.

Are there heuristics on how changes to quoted text should be indicated? Your comments, oh wise ones? Online references, if any, would be useful and welcome.

Pattern-chaser

Who cares, wins"

P.S. If the quoted text interests you, it's taken from a journal entry on my home page entitled "What is reality?"