h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I think she was getting at that to. no one likes it when you have ideas pucshed on you by someone els, I am not saying the information should not be maide avalible for the people who want it but dont give it to everyone.

As Cooper seems to be getting ganged up on, I've come to his support. Here's my take.

I'm a Christian, and proud to say so. I also admit that I witness to people. But I also have atheist, Buddhist, agnostic and Wiccan friends. I believe that it is a person's right to choose his own beliefs.

But I also belief that there is only one certain truth in the universe: Christ died to make me and the rest of the perfect. It is up the person to keep God's grace or not.

Tegan, I am also a Lutheran, and I can PROMISE you that your daughter with get a wonderful education at any of the Lutheran colleges around the nation: Martin Luther, Bethel, PLU, NWL, etc. I went to three and a half years of Lutheran gradeschool and can say that it was no different than public school, except that they equipped me with knowledge of my faith, as well. I also learned some very interesting information that scientifically backs up our faith. But I'll not go into that unless you want me to.

I also went to public school, and currently attend a crappy public high school in Alaska. And there are a HUGE number of midwesterners around here, and I'm guessing you're from either MN or WS, but I may be wrong. I know countless midwesterners who are also agnostic, but, like you, do not brodcast their faith (I'm sorry, I have to call it what it is... all beliefs take some amount of faith, be it in evolutionism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.). I understand their predicament...

I lived in Utah for a period of time, and as I am not Mormon,m I was continually getting harassed and preached at and threatened and argued with, etc. It wasn't pleasant, by any means, so I try not to do the same thing to anyone I know.

But I must say, it hurts me to see so many people's callous and altogether vicious views of Christianity. Many of you are portraying us as uncompromising, hatful people. Those Christians who are like that are hypocritical, and *I* dislike them, too.

But in today's post-modern atmosphere, claims that truth is relative abound, and I must admit, it is a tempting thought, that what works for one person may not be the truth for another. But then I must look, and see, that there is one truth, at least, there is only one substantiated truth that I've seen, and that's Christ.

I can only say this: if everyone's right, then no one's right, and all is wrong. There must be incorrectness in the surmise that all is truth. I mean, if I say gravity doesn't exist, it's obviously false. It is a truth. if I say 2+2=6, I am again wrong, as 2+2=4 is a truth (not counting voo-doo math). So there are two things I have jsut shown to be wrong. So, doesn't it follow that everyone CANNOT be right??

shanana

The reason that cooper seems to be getting picked on is that he has said a few very silly things, some of them trying to convert (making him fair game for us toreturn the favour), in a forum that has little to do with religious belief, and everything to do with surviving the attitudes that cooper presents if you don't share them.

cooper stated that everyone who didn't agree with his particular version of christianity is doomed to eternal damnation, even if they have never heard his particular version (that probably includes you as well). cooper also came out with various dogmatic and self contradictory statements. If you are silly enough to post statements on h2g2 that contradict themselves, you should expect to be picked up on it.

And yes, you are right. Any organised system of thought entails dogmatic "by definition" beliefs, and the rest being conclusions drawn from various evidence with varying degrees of uncertainty. This is a fundamental problem of logic, and not of any faith in particular, an most religions have as dogmatic rule number one that if you question the faith, you are not very nice.

Also the fact that most faiths work from translations of their holy documents leads to various problems with putting strict constraints on the interpretation that you give particular passages.

I don't happen to share your faith, or any other organised religion for that matter, but if you allow me the right to my beliefs, i will defend your right to yours. (equally, if you try to "convert" me to your beliefs, i reserve the right to try to convert you to mine).

If you wish to get into a serious discussion about the problems of various religions, or theological discusion generally, then someone here start a thread on my space called religion, and I will be happy to discuss it seriously. in the mean time, we should get back to the original theme of this thread, and help the original poster with their problem.

"some of them trying to convert (making him fair game for us toreturn the favour)" WHAT?!! Show me a conversion-aimed statement.

"surviving the attitudes that cooper presents if you don't share them" self-quote: "don't assume that people will deride you for your beliefs" Why would I say this if I were one of those who DO so deride?

"cooper also came out with various dogmatic and self contradictory statements" Show me a pair of contradictory statements.

"If you wish to get into a serious discussion about the problems of various religions, or theological discusion generally, then someone here start a thread on my space called religion, and I will be happy to discuss it seriously. in the mean time, we should get back to the original theme of this thread, and help the original poster with their problem" I believe that everyone on this thread has posted some advice. If not, everyone should. But what's so wrong about thread evolution?

--Cooper

Also, banana-butt:

I'm a Xian AND I believe in evolution. Evolution is really just a subset of beliefs, not comprising a belief system in and of itself.

--Cooper

where did I deride evolution? Hey, I believe in evolution, too. Heck, I KNOW evolution is a fact. I just dont believe we came from monkeys.

And anyway... there ARE those who take the evolutionist viewpoint as an explanation that contradicts creationism. Perhaps I should call them the "just happened to.." believers.

Is that better, Barrel-maker?

Shanana

I didn't say you derided it, I just noted that you'd put it up there with major religions.

SOunds like a good suggestion to me.

--Cooper

I live with an Irish Catholic. Our son was admitted to the church when he was 10. I am a lifelong humanist, and a devout hater of organised religiions. Our son knows this and is currently atheist in his leaning. he will make his own choice later I'm sure. Your girls must be free to choose, as most religions are successful at closig their adherents eyes to reality. Good luck.

well...im a christian hiker,
its been very interesting looking at you all "trash my religion" as Xulffa the magical being, put it.
Hitler sure was not a christian! He blamed it all on the Jews just so he had a reason for a war.
And i see most of you claim to be "agnostics", meaning you dont believe in anything. Everyone believes in something. Sure you can get real cocky and say "I believe in me". But everyone has a code of ethics right? You still have "right & wrong". What if you feel really bad about something you did. Like steal, or bash someone to death (only for example)? Wouldn't you want to get rid of that nagging guilt at the back of your head? Guilt slowly 'devours' you and 'evil will find you out'. God's love being unconditional means that He's willing to take away the guilt and forget about absolutly anything you've done wrong. Im not trying to convert you all to christianity ok? It IS your choice.
Im just trying to make some sort of point here against all of you "all christians are evil people" people.
Thats the end of the sermon for today.

Hello,

I would like to clear something up. A lot of people are under the false beleif that I have something against Xians. I don't. I respect anyone who has true faith in their beliefs (as long as they don't feel forced to force them on others.) Many of my friends are strong Xians. However I do hate the people who call themselves Xians who do not have true faith but just like having an excuse to victimise and abuse others of other religious followings (including atheism.)
Okay.

Athiest Bob

PS.I finished "Not the end of the world" by Chris Brookmyre. It's a very good book on this very subject and I suggest you all read it.

Shanana said: if everyone's right, then no one's right, and all is wrong. There must be incorrectness in the surmise that all is truth. Absolutely Shanana. My point is that the truth - whatever it is - is infinite and therefore incomprehensible. This makes it pretty meaningless to nit-pick about it. We all laugh at the theological debate over how many angels could stand on the head of a pin, but are our debates any the less laughable? And thank you for bringing eloquence and courtesey back to this thread. Xyroth said: but if you allow me the right to my beliefs, i will defend your right to yours. Quite right too. Og - agnosticism is not 'not knowing what you believe' but believing that the concept of god is so distant as to be irrelevent to human experience. However a lot of people who dont know what they beleive do call themselves agnostics. There is a thread in Ask H2G2 which might interest you all. http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F19585?thread=112466 agcB

>>>>However I do hate the people who call themselves Xians who do not have true faith but just like having an excuse to victimise and abuse others of other religious followings (including atheism.)
Okay.
<<<<

Honestly, Sick Bob, I don't think *anyone* likes them. They're mean, spiteful, judgemental, hypocritical, and donwright annoying. Just because I love them doesn't mean I have to like them (much like my Grandma).

>>>>if everyone's right, then no one's right, and all is wrong. There must be incorrectness in the surmise that all is truth.

Absolutely Shanana. My point is that the truth - whatever it is - is infinite and therefore incomprehensible. This makes it pretty meaningless to nit-pick about it. We all laugh at the theological debate over how many angels could stand on the head of a pin, but are our debates any the less laughable?
<<<<

But there must be some truth that we can grasp. Otherwhise, our lives would be filled with complete meaningless. Man must strive towards truth, and there are several that I think are universal: gravity, mathematics, no one knows anything (care of Sophecles), and Christ.

It's hard to be sure of anything, I'll give you that. Today's world makes everything seems more complex than it should be. Gone are the days of millenia past when life was a simple set of motions like herding sheep, farming the land, and then going home and knowing that their life was about community and worship for their deity.

When did life become such a convoluted mess of questions??

Shanana

Don't you mean 'Socrates'?

--Cooper

yes. now shut up. temporary brain dead moment. and anyway, the point remains. I'm just tired. when you write a ten page research paper in a night, that happens.

Shanana

One of the things I challenge is polarities, especially the bit ones: Good - Evil; Truth - Falsehood; Right - Wrong; stuff like that.

We use polarities because we are have bi-lobed brains, and two hands one of which is dextrous and the other sinister.

If intelligent and spiritually aware life developed from Starfish, would it wrestle with polarities? I doubt if it could even imagine a polarity.

Take Black and White. Where does that leave aquarmarine, or bunt umber, or the sound of trumpets, or the smell of lilies, or the taste of chablis, or the feel of warm water?

Polarities just dont do it for me as universal truths, which is why I challenge them so much, and avoid them so often; though they are a useful practical method of managing our bi-polar brains.

agcB

I would say that Ben's comment was absolutely true. However that would be a polar statement itself (true/false.)
Let's just say that it did it for me.
And Shanana, I'm glad to hear that you agree about the non-beleiving conformists to religion. I know that a lot of Xians I know will always defend the actions of other Xians even if they are not true beleivers. I like to hear religious people who have no alliegences and prejudices towards those who follow differnet beleifs.

I feel like i should be starting by stating my affliation but honestly I cant think of one.
I havnt been raised in any religeous way, my Mother and Gran wouldn't even tell me what they believed in and I've never talked about it with my step father.

I dont believe in a God or Gods or a higher power but I dont believe that none could exist, sound contrary I now but I just dont have much opinion any which way!

I have taken an interest in peoples religion, Mormons, Catholics, Greek orthodox, Prodestant, Muslim, Shinto, even a guy that got all Buhdist but I think he wasn't taking it very seriously. But I have never been very affected by any, not negatively or positively.

I cant be an Atheist because I dont believe that God doesnt exist!(sorry for the double negative)

So I guess I'm an Agnostic but this takes no "faith" or cynicism. The thing I understand least is why people feel they have to have an opinion on people because of their affiliation to a religion or belief structure,eg"I am a lifelong humanist, and a devout hater of organised religiions" and even people that look down on this say things like, " I dont Christians as a whole, its the ones that try to force their belief down your throat that i hate!".

If I believed that everyone that didnt believe in god was going to hell I'd try to bring my religion to as many as possible. But when someone trys to do this to me and I say that I dont have time they usualy are perfectly pleasent, hand me a leaflet and let me go. If they dont i just leave!
I hope that I judge people by how they treat me and those I care about and not what they believe in. Having said that If I dislike someone they soon find out about it!



Bit lengthy sorry!
Merangadan

Merangadan,

Thank you. As to your stance on judgement, I agree whole-heartedly. I feel the same way, as I'm sure many people do. It's a hard way to live, but I figure it's worthwhile and rewarding. Heck, Christ himself said "judge not, lest ye be judged" and "let he without sin cast the first stone."

It's impossible to tell what a person is like at first glance, and I agree, that if you don't want to be converted, you don't have to be. Heck, Mormons are always trying to get me to come with them, read their Book (which I have, just to become aware of what's going on) and convert. Same thing with Jehovah's Witnesses. You just shrug them off politely and move on.

No one should be offended by it, as it's just a form of free speech that they are taking advantage of. Now, if they're all in your face and causing you bodily harm, feel free to do something about it.

Ben,

I understand your aversion to bi-polarities, but, looking at the natural world, you can't help but realize that the world is nothing but a bunch of opposites. North and south pole. Red and blue. CArnivore and Herbivore. Macroscopic and Microscopic.

Yes, there are in-betweens for some of those, but for others, there aren't. There is bi-polarity and our brains were wired that way for a reason. If God (sorry, I'm gonna preach a might bit here, bear with me) intended us to not think bi-polarly, then he would have set us up differently. The world would not be as it is today, had He not have had our thought-processes in mind. He showed us good and evil and I feel that no matter the tiniest "evil," it is equal to the greatest (ie, a little fib is equal to murder).

Shanana

I'll have to agree with Shanana's main point and take exception to some of her details.

Yes, I think that there are so many polarities in the universe because it was designed that way. (And polarity carries the meaning of "two". Enough of this bi-polar nonsense.)

But humans are also masters of definition. Much of the way we view the universe is due to our own classifications. We tend to put things on continua. For example, microscopic and macroscopic. There's not a firm line seperating them. The distinction is highly artificial.

However, some of the distinctions are natural: positive and negative charges (from whence the entire concept of polarity), black and white, off and on, blue and orange (not red), red and green (not blue), presence and absence, &c. These exist in nature, and the fact that so many others exist through our basic though process is in my opinion proof of an Intelligence in the Universe (see Emerson or Thoreau here).

Where I think many relativists (of whom I am proudly not one) get into trouble is in trying to make any given object/idea/thought/other item only one attribute. There are polar extremes, but no large anything embodies an attribute on the whole. Its various monads may be evil, good, off, on &c., but the whole thing is composed of its varying monads, which means it's not perfectly bad or good or off or on.

An electron is perfectly negative--most of the time. The point is: nothing, anywhere, is perfect.

So I suppose in application I would agree with many relativists on some issues. But in theory, I am an absolutist at heart: There IS a right way to think, a right way to act, a right everything. Nothing else even comes close to that. Just because no one can reach the level of making every right action every time doesn't mean there isn't a right way to act.

--Cooper

Cooper has made some of my points for me, and thanks for pointing out that bi-polar is tautologous.

How can colours be opposites when they are part of a continous spectrum? I understand that within the limited field of visible light which is an arbitary subsection of the spectrum, some colours behave in a particular way in relation to each other. But they absolutley are not polar opposites.

A carnivore is not the opposite of a herbivore. Most carnivores will sometimes eat plant material. And what about omnivores? You could say that anything which eats is the opposite of something which photosynthesises.

You see my point? That most polarities are arbitary human lables, not true polarities at all. North and south, I accept. Positive and Negative charges, too. But the concept of macroscopic and microscopic is just a human convenience not a universal polarity. Sorry Shanana.

Also, I found your argument slighty circular: god (if you beleive in him, which I dont) guided our evolution with polar-brains because this is the best way to view the world? And this is the best way to view the world becuase god did this? Arrrghhhh! Doesn't do it for me. It is certainly the easiest way for us to view the world, through our left and right eyes, into the left and right hemispheres of our brains. But I lack the arrogance to say that it is the best way the world can be sensed and considered.

Finally, the tiniest fib is NOT the equivalent to murder. Absolutely no way, no, not ever, never, never.

I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, but I believe that it is a human construct for human convenience, and that it represents something more akin to the colours of the spectrum than an absolutely polar Black or White. Even the old testament god was negotiable on how many good people were too many to destroy with the rest on an otherwise evil city.

You are entitled to your beliefs, and you hold them gracefully and present them kindly. Please don't take the above as flaming. It is not intended that way.

Looks like I am a relativist called Ben, then.