h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Wilma, I thnk you have hit upon a problem that many of us share. Science has revealed so much to us about the way the universe works that our logical minds tell us to look to science, not religion, for answers. But deep within us is this small voice that seems to know there is something more that we can neither qualify nor quantify. And then there are personal experiences that are hard to explain through rational means. So we are caught in this limbo of wanting to believe in a spiritual realm because of this "something" inside us speaking to us and not wanting to be gullible fools and recognizing that most belief is simply conditioning or brainwashing, if you will.

Plus we don't want to be considered whacko charlatans by speaking about this voice we hear inside us that is completely unexplainable.

Yep. Especially on h2g2. There are some pretty dedicated athiests around these parts.

I'm a 'cause-and-effect' type geek, which falls in nicely with science.

I also believe in the 'supernatural', in an instinctive spiritual link which all creatures share. Gnosis, in a word. For those familiar with Castaneda's work, 'silent knowledge'...

One has to be a lifelong mystic to approach any broad understanding of supernatural law, but the concept of Love provides a good clue as to how it works.

Honestly, I do not understand why science and the supernatural necessarily have to be mutually exclusive? Some of the most famous scientists were/are very very religious. Einstein comes to mind immediately. Perhaps after you have studied quarks and defined charm, you start to think that perhaps there is a God after all, and it has a sense of humor.

Science versus superstition: One requires thought, the other, not.

I like to think of religion and spirituality as being, well, not exactly mutually exclusive, but imperfectly coupled...

Jesus was/is Gnostic. That's good enough for me. [Read the Gospel of Thomas before you argue. ]

The American founding fathers, as a group, adopted the Deist approach. Imho, it's the best blend of Logos and logic.

I like to think of my philosophy as one of spiritual simplicity without dogmatism. For the most part I believe more in the journey than in the destination.

*nodding while trying to assimilate new thought*

... and, Hypatia, my philosophy is probably then one of spiritual simplicity with structure - a political identity type structure rather than anything going on in my head, iykwim. It is rather disconcerting being a Catholic Arab living in the West in the best of circumstances, rather more so these days... My husband just coasts, I think he is more of a 'just in case' believer, as it were

I know you've had a very stressful time lately, Wilma. Being Catholic (I don't think I've been excommunicated yet) I can relate to the security the structure of the church provides. I've always found the church to be a bit schizophrenic. If you can get past the surface dogma you'll find that it provides much more freedom of choice spiritually than is generally acknowledged. There is a great mystical tradition within the church that is seldom discussed and certainly misunderstood by outsiders.

Much of my philosophy has been greatly influenced by two monks - a Trappist and a Benedictine. Thomas Merton and Bede Griffiths. They truly understood the call to ecumenism given to all of us in Vatican II. Xantief, these men are my Castenada.

My spirituality was influenced largely by the way I was raised. We were Baha'is in a time and place when this was a rare and odd thing. My parents followed the dictates of that religion which required "informed consent" to join. What that meant was that you were not allowed to declare yourself a member of the Baha'i Faith until you had learned about the other religions available to you. My problem has been that ever since then I suffer from knowing too much.

I did choose to be a Baha'i for a while. One of the main rules laid down by Baha'u'llah was the absolute forbidding of clergy. He stated unequivocally that each person should read the Word for themselves and decide what it meant. No one was to tell you, and no one had the power to speak to God for you. While I was in college I observed that Less than 130 years after the Messenger had died, the people who wanted power had already begun to pervert the Message and establish a "clergy", the people who were wiser and could tell you what the Words of the Messenger meant. So I chose to stop participating formally in the religion, while I still believe many of the teachings.

Meanwhile, I find it feels very "right" to observe the cycle of the seasons. So I do that too.

"My parents followed the dictates of that religion which required "informed consent" to join. What that meant was that you were not allowed to declare yourself a member of the Baha'i Faith until you had learned about the other religions available to you. My problem has been that ever since then I suffer from knowing too much."

See, that's the thing though -- doesn't having the choice make it more sincere? While I could never possibly presume to question the sincerity of those who have grown up following any religion, there's a certain feeling -- for me at least -- that if you find your own faith, rather than having it taught to you, it can mean a lot more to you than the faith that you are taught, if you catch my drift.

Something I have always wondered is how, when you're raised in any faith, do you ever know if your beliefs are valid or just a product of indoctrination at a young age? Let's be honest, here. Most Christians are so because that is how they were raised, not because they did an extensive study of comparative religions and chose Christianity as being the most valid. The same thing goes for all faiths. But people are so "certain" of their particular dogmas, often to the point of being willing to kill for them. It never occurs to them to question the truth of what they're taught. And it seems to be getting worse instead of better. Scary.

I think that was the point of informed consent. By studying different ways of worship and different points of view, you become more tolerant. And I do feel extremely sincere about my faith and spirituality. But I don't seem to have too much trouble relating to others and it serves me well since I come across a huge diversity of people in my line of work.

Beleive in dreams, Wilma. Without dreams I wouldn't exist because my grandfather would be very very dead, several times over.

I also have an aunt who has had totally weird dreams that turned out to be true. Like when she dreamed of her husband riding on a motorcycle through a desert behind a bearded Latino. He'd gone to Venezuela for business, gotten waylaid by highwaymen, and rescued by a passing motorcycle gang...

Fortunately my totally weird dreams are just dreams. But there have been so many recorded instances of prophetic dreams that you have to take the possibility seriously.

My dreams seem to be of people who have gone on before. I don't know if it's closure or my mind wanting to be in contact with them. And then there is the ubiquitous dream of being in college and not being able to find my geography class--and it's always geography.

Mebbe if you conjured up a map in your dream... Ironic, how it associates with geography.

I think it's odd--the geography thing. I liked geography and also liked my teacher. He was cool. Wore sandals without sox to class (in the early sixties). I made good grades too so I can't imagine why I can't find the class in my dreams. I don't go all semester because I can't find the class..........very puzzling.

You had a geography class in college? I don't remember there being one offered by the time I got there. I certainly would have taken it if there had been.

I had two semesters of geography at Pitt State. It fit in with my Social Studies Block. Elementary teachers had to declare two fields of concentration in addition to their major--mine were Social Studies and English. I also had enough hours in Psychology and Sociology to qualify for a third field.
I doubt if the program is the same now as it was in the early sixties.

I am truly a dinosaur.