h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Martian

F

Blather - Does it matter? It's not ours.

Hi Pattern Chaser

Re: >I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows.......I believe I know, you believe you know. You never know, we might both know! More: we might be right.

I am not sure if, when we write these words, we both have the same thing in mind. When I write I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows - I mean I don't know how and why the universe works, I don't know the meaning, or even if there is one, to life and neither does anybody else.

Can I ask, when you say "I believe I know and etc.", what do you mean by that? It does seem to trouble you when I write "I don't know" etc., but I cannot think of a better and more succinct way to put this.

>Nice posting, Albaus.

Thanks- I definitely post better when I am not exhausted and annoyed - duh .

Regards

"Can we see, as an equitable accomodation, that Truthes are merely satellites of Truth."

Umm... not unless you can explain to me why this should be the case, no.

""....go forward back in time" requires that you believe in a paricular, paradoxical Truth...... That, in the beginning, everything was perfect/heavenly."

Oh dear, what a shame - you've stumbled across something which I absolutely don't believe in. Why should everything have been perfect in the beginning?

And if it was perfect, why did it become imperfect? To be more precise, wouldn't a perfect environment be incapable of becoming imperfect, because surely perfection, in order to be perfect, would be eternal and incapable of being supplanted by imperfection.

Maw, Good Morning,

"Umm... not unless you can explain to me why this should be the case, no.".....because not to accept a difference of opinion, an alternate point of view, is to argue, is to exclude. It is a negative.

Oh dear, what a shame, Maw - you've stumbled across something which I absolutely don't believe in. Why shouldn't everything have been perfect in the beginning? To think otherwise is to rule out Hope. Why would you choose to do that? This can lead to a very selfish existence or maybe you just like a good "argument" to brighten up your day.

"And if it was perfect, why did it become imperfect?"...... Have you ever had too much of a good thing, Maw? Are you going to tell me that it does not answer the question? I hope not! In those two questions lies the Answer?

It is nice to have a new job. I hope you enjoy it. Congratulations.

If everything was perfect in the beginning, it'd all be perfect now.

Why do you assume that
a) To rule out perfection is to rule out hope? and
b) that this isn't perfection? Define.
(Fnord - you have the memory of a liquidised baby goldfish. I said I'd be back today. And I am)
Thank you for welcoming me, everyone. Glad I've been accepted, not many people get past the strenuous application standards here .

"Thank you for welcoming me, everyone. Glad I've been accepted, not many people get past the strenuous application standards here."

Well, MAL, I hope I do.

Evolutionary Theist
U239975
I believe that the Theist Triuple-O God exists, but is not benevolent. Rather, I believe that it has its own motives, that may or may not be good for us.

perfection is always relative to some standard or purpose/function; Perfection, taken as an abstract unrelated to anything, is necessarily meaningless.

Noggin

"If everything was perfect in the beginning, it'd all be perfect now.".........Possibly!

But I maintain that in any human system there is a flaw. As good as we think we are, we are flawed and until that is recognised the attack on the system continues, spreading like a virus, infecting all aspects of the host.

As a starting point, perfection? seems as good as any because it suggests a possibility leading to a probability of us attaining something which we have had before whereas anything else introduces an unpredictable element resulting in an acceptance of Chaos.

It is hard to imagine that, say in the beginning everything was as it is now because we can all see "progress" during the our time here on Earth....our lifetime. However a closer examination of "progress" suggests, to me, that it may be a flaw. It may even be the flaw which is preventing harmony...... no discord, a oneness, stability. Our "progress" appears to introduce elements both good and bad. Maybe this is the human condition brought about by progress. In a progressive society of one mating pair, there will be no have /have nots. As this society grows and attends to its needs, innovative thought solutions introduce the imbalance which we can recognise as the haves and the have nots. The cave dweller and the condo by the beach.

Perhaps the perfection which I refer to is equality. We are merely seeking an accomodation, an acceptance of the premise that what we had at the beginning was better than what we have now. This indicates that it is something which we have done, which has resulted in things as they are today. And if we want to change things to make things better, we change those things which we think resulted in us being in our present condition. Provided, of course, that we want to.

Order is then brought to Chaos. Because to go forward and not know where you are going is to invite random Chaos.

If you don't try to make things "better", progress will make them worse. It is the nature of future progress which we are discussing.

The importance of this becomes very apparent if you believe that progress will enable you to direct the future in a certain direction. It becomes even more important if you consider that this ability/facility will be, initially, confined to those societies whose development and infrastructures support implementation.
Even today, there is a growing awareness that actions taken by Governments in the past have had a darker hidden agenda. The only saving grace is that the true impact of what was being done was never realised. To suggest that this is not so, is to invite Anarchy.

The questions are whether there is a collective will and what course of action is going to be "imposed" upon the system. This will be the Control which battles against Chaos.

What is needed is a global Constitution?! And I make no apologies for making that statement, a question.

Mal,
Perfection is surely only an aspiration, which is why I never rule it out. And This isn't perfection for me because I aspire to more. I wish to improve upon what I have but not at the expense of others but rather with the help of others to improve upon their condition also and also not at the expense of others.

There are others who would wish to improve upon what they have but show no regard for the consequences of their actions. These are dangerous people. They bring the unknown.

ET, Hi,
I can accept your Theist Triple-O God mindset. It would seem to suggest that whatever course of action that we may take, it will make no difference because it has its own motives. That may be the case, but that does not indicate YOUR course of action.
Does it lead to an aimless existence?

You appear to have covered all bases with your Evolutionary Theism and I can see an attraction in its resignation/abdication of responsibility. However, its foreboding nature is at odds with my own optimism and therefore this aspect I will disregard. The rest I will add to my Belief of what is God.

MfM - it's all very well to aspire to more, but what if there isn't any?
Who are you to decide what is at my expense and what experiences I value?
The unknown is the most valuable asset we have. It is the Final Frontier. Don't fear it, thank it and watch it carefully out of the corner of your eye.
I'm a perfect example of Fnord Prefix, and I demand that you all bow down to me...

Fnordo,

If there isn't any then there isn't any. I can accept that.

"Who are you to decide what is at my expense and what experiences I value?"....quite where you have ever read anything to suggest that I would even begin to imagine to decide for anyone other than myself is beyond me.

The unknown is a valuable asset, however whether it is the most valuable is debatable. Don't fear it, thank it and watch it carefully out of the corner of your eye.

Where did I see that?
"but not at the expense of others"
"improve upon their condition"
"also not at the expense of others" (see, you meant it so much that you even said it twice)
"Don't fear it..." (by saying this you are trying to persuade me, by persuading me you are trying to make me follow what you do)

Oh yes. "This will be the Control which battles against Chaos." Can you expand on this, please? Why is "C"haos bad? Why is control good?

Neither total order or total disorder are suitable environments for humans. All the humanly interesting stuff happens in between.

And who will control the controllers?

Noggin

Ad infinitum, I suppose. But the same can be said for chaoticists. Who will rebel against them? Lack of control is a means of control. Anway, the answer is, I suspect, "computers", in this modern age.
Besides, order isn't the opposite of chaos. It's just another kind.

hi Noggin,

<>

Absolutely. What makes us interesting as humans is our inability to be perfect. And, since perfection is a relative concept, this then makes it imperfect - somehow?

<>

Good question.

az

Imperfection and perfection, then, become the same thing.

Fnord,

Well, I don't actually believe that perfection exists, as this is all in the eye of the beholder. But imperfection exists. It is what all of us are - imperfect. Though perhaps this is our condition - that we are all perfectly imperfect? It isn't the same thing, I don't think. Imperfection is what we live. Perfection is what we imagine.

Am I making any sense?

az