h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

See posts 3642/3643 az. The question was really directed at Fnord, who seemed to be saying that internally mediated control (self control) isn't "true control".

Noggin

Noggin,

Okay, re-read those postings. And so, what? There really is no such thing as 'true control' then?

az

There's control, and there's absence of control. But an alternative dichotomy between "true" control, and (presumably) "false" control has been proposed, and I just wondered what the proposer had in mind.

Noggin

Internally mediated control is another brand entirely - perhaps self-limitation would be more accurate. So the difference between "true" and "false" control would probably be that which resides in one entity and that which resides in a group of entities. At least, that's what I had in mind.

Which is which? And from a systems point of view what's the difference?

Noggin

The first - it depends on who you are and what you're like, I suppose.
As for the systems view, I'd like to say that it works like individual PCs and a network, but it doesn't. If anything, it's more like a group of computers, each with some high-demand software which somehow steals the others' bandwidths, and the fastest, biggest and cleverest prevail.
--------
Forget all that, that's just my personal crusade against authority. I don't really have an answer for that, Noggin. Do you?

Not sure I follow you, Fnord. What was the question, exactly?

Noggin

"Which is which? And from a systems point of view what's the difference?"

Okay, let's just pretend the last three posts never happened, and take it from there, yes?

Noggin

Okay then.
By my accounts it's your turn now. Let's imagine that I didn't have time to think of an answer right now, and I'm asking you to provide your answer.

Well, my answer is that I don't see the distinction you're making, exactly, but there seems to be an implication that "true" control is exercised from outside the system, and is bound up with some notion of Authority. Now it's true that "Authority" would like to control the rest of the system from outside, as it were, but that's a separate political issue (which we can discuss in due course), but control is still control if it maintains the goal directed behaviour of the system, even if it's internal.

Noggin

Noggin and Fnord,



So then, external control is about Authority, ( ? ) which includes government and social stuff. No?

And so internal control is . . . what?

I mean, our bodies are internally controlled. We maintain a proper body temperature that allows us to live. We keep breathing, our hearts keep pumping without us having to do this consciously. Our cells are constantly dying and new ones being born, they are in constant battle with bacteria in order to maintain the living organism which is us. That is how I basically see 'internal control'.

Of course, then we have our minds, which seem to be able to control a lot more than we often give them credit for. Even the basic physical stuff. Mind over matter.

Sorry, I know I am being very simplistic here, but I am doing this for a purpose - to find out what exactly you guys are talking about when it comes to internal and external control. And so, from my very basic understanding, where can you take me?

az

From a process perspective, an ideal control system is a closed loop, has negative feedback and has an adjustable set point.

There are other things that might be desirable (such as insulation from interference, data logging, etc) but those are the three main elements required to have "control".

Is that a useful contribution?

The distinction between perfection and imperfection seems a pointless discussion. Perfection and imperfection are subjective terms and the distinction is entirely arbitrary.

For example, how big is the perfect crystal of sodium chloride? Why should another crystal that is identical in every respect, except that it is twice as large, be any less perfect than the first crystal?

Thanks, Madent, for the first note for a while that I think I understood! The distinction between perfection and imperfection, if that's what this discussion is about, is indeed pointless (IMO).

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

hi Madent and Patter Chaser,

<>

Well, I think this is what I have been saying all along, though perhaps not quite as well.

And anyhoodle, if you or I were to be offered 'perfection' tomorrow (a perfect world) would we even want it? I rather don't think so.

Being human means that we are imperfect. And just look at the things we love. A small child whose head is still too big for its body trying to walk and talk, and falling down - this melts our hearts and makes us want to love this little being *because* of its 'imperfections', not in spite of them. Because, I think, we all relate to being imperfect.

A perfect being, a perfect world - if they could ever exist (and I don't believe this is possible) - would be something totally out of our range of human feelings and perceptions.

At best, in art and nature (even perhaps in mathematics) we sometimes come close to experiencing the sublime, the almost-perfect. And I think that is about as much as we can handle, to be honest. We're not built to be perfect. But sometimes we do get close.

az

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