h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi,

I'm back after a long time. Good to see you!

Could you help me with one question I keep thinking about: Could it be that Jesus never lived, that his life is a complete fiction compiled from many older sources, written by some guys around the year 150 in order to speed the spreading of their religion?

One of the argument I read in favour to this theory is that Jesus is nowhere mentioned in the letters of members of the church until about 150, no traveling to his birthplace by the church elders, nothing.

Did you hear anything about that?

Wonko, still alive

Bloody Hell! Wonko! Good to see you again. Wie ghets du?

B

Blimey, Wonko, controversial as ever. Jesus never lived? That's difficult for an atheist to swallow. Next you'll be telling us there's no Santa Claus...

It's certainly possible Wonko, and there are even a few cryptic clues about the place, but it's controversial and currently unprovable.

Certainly Paul, whose writings are the oldest in the NT, never met Jesus, and based his teachings on his visions, not on historical testimony.

Noggin

Pffft, does it matter?

Couldn't think of anything really controversial then, Wonko? Depending on your standards of proof, I'm sure there is sufficient doubt that your proposition couldn't be disproved, so it's much the same question as "was Jesus God?" or "is there a God?", in that sense.

I like to believe that there is no such person as George W. Bush. I've never met him. I've seen him on TV, but I've seen Sherlock Holmes there too.... If I don my Hat of Philosophic Pedantry , I doubt that anyone could convincingly demonstrate his existence.

So yes: you could be quite right.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

There is quite a lot of corroborating evidence of Dubya. And that's the primary argument against the existence of a real, historical Jesus... lack of corroborating evidence. Apart from various gospels, whose authenticity is in doubt, we have *nothing.*

I read some interesting things concerning Q and how the Synoptic Gospels (those with close similarities, Matt, Mark, and Luke) came about. The study identified three traditions, each introduced to the Synoptics at different levels of the evolution.

The first was the Wisdom tradition, which is where the nice things Jesus says come from... "Turn the other cheek...", "Do unto others...", etc. This would be the original Q, or sayings gospel, that historians have been searching for.

The second tradition was the Apocalyptic tradition, and this is where the really mean things come from... "He who does not hate his parents cannot follow me...", "I bring not peace but the sword...", etc. This strain of thought is pretty easy to seperate from the Wisdom tradition, because the two really don't belong together. It's thought that this was the second evolution, because the rise of apocalypse literature in general is seen as a later development.

The third tradition was the Narrative tradition. If you really examine the synoptics, you really get the sense that the story is very disjointed... sayings just sort of appear here and there, and don't really fit into the narrative. It looks as if someone took the sayings of Jesus, both the Apocalyptic and Wisdom traditions, and then put them into the context of a story. And that's why the story doesn't quite flow.

Now, if this analysis of the origin of the story of Jesus is true, then all it leaves us originally is a figure who said some things. Whether this was an actual person, or whether many people contributed to this tradition and attributed them to a person, real or fictional, is impossible to verify. What is clear is that it developed as an oral tradition, and didn't get written down until after Paul made significant contributions to the mythos.

One thing we have learned through archaeology is that many traditions have a root of truth in them. But while there may very well have been a Yeshua ben Joseph, he would be unrecognizable to his modern followers.

Hi Ben, mir geht es gut!
I am fine, for you others. My life is like a movie, only that it's real. I just managed to get my big famliy kind of working together, as it has always been my dream. I send you my best wishes out of hell!

Hi king Lear,
well, I searching for the final death blow to religion. And this theory fits quit well to my view of religion as a big hoax.

Hi Noggin the Nog,
I have problems to understand where your name comes from. Isn't it amazing that Paul didn't write anything of how he travelled to Palestine to vist the birthplace, or Jerusalem, where his god has been living?

Hi MaW,
for the sane of us surly it doesn't. Only that we live in states which are influenced by those who made up religion to get themselves to power, and that means less freedom for all of us.

Hi Pattern-Chaser,
as always on the doubtful side, just as me, only more consequently. I am humanistic, that means I have a deep, yet unproven, trust in the ability of mankind of reasonable thinking.

Hi Colonel,
very nice to see you back. I've predicted it, and H2G2 without you is like sheep without shepherds.
Thanks for the long answer, I think it underscores the theory. The different versions of the gospels look like the increasing attempt to convert first the Jews and then the Romans to the new faith. You can even see a change in the attitude towards them: in the older version of the gospels the Jews are the good ones, and in the newer version the Romans. I've often wondered about the language of the gospels, so much information is packed into a few sentences. It seems unlikely that such an important story which would have been around for over 100 years by the time of the writing, and having been transmitted oraly, would be so short and without the flesh you'd expect. It is more likely to me that someone was given the order to write a convincing book and wrote it under the pressure of time, and afterwards there have been a few revisions to adapt it to changing times and victims for the new faith.

I've searched the net about this question but I am not sure about the things I found. Do you know any (reliable) sources?

Your Wonko

<. The study identified three traditions, each introduced to the Synoptics at different levels of the evolution. >

Sorry, but whenever I notice irony like that I just have to point it out.

Anyway, I was always under the (apparently mistaken) impression that there was signifigant proof that Yeshue did in fact exist. Confronted with this new information, very little of my philosophy changes, but plenty of my sympathy. The adamant Christians once again end up on the losing side.

But that's just arrogant old me.

Here comes the hand of god to smite me.

*is smited (smitten?)*

No! Not again.

I defy you to find something meaningful in that post. sorry.

Name: Albaus.

Chair title: They Never Proved Anything (inscription on my tombstone).

Any beliefs you'd like to list: I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows.

And to quote from a much more sensible person than I: "Religions come equipped with a moral system that reflects the desires/whims of their particular gods. When you gravitate towards agnosticism or atheism, you find yourself without a moral structure. This is where Secular Humanism comes into play. It turns out that basing your morality on the observable and palpable effects it has on humanity is infinitely more sensible to basing it on a fictitious or unknowable character."

But being a fish is far more fun.

Hi Wonko; pleased to meet you. Noggin the Nog was/is a children's cartoon character from ... er, a long time ago.

I read something a while back (can't remember author's name or book title ), which suggested that Christianity grew out of the Essene sect (not in itself a new idea), that the Essenes had communities in the Jewish diaspora, and that Paul's visions were of the Teacher of Righteousness mentioned in the Dead Sea scrolls, who was probably one of the founders of the Essenes.

Noggin

Well you could try the Bible. Apparently, it was written by God in person.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

It might have been, but if that's the case He needs to get a new editor.

Yeah, just look at the typo's

Welcome, Albaus, sounds like you'll fit in just fine around here.



GTB

Name: Dracula of Space

Chair title: Extraterrestrial Propagator of the Vampire Myth

Any beliefs you'd like to list so we can make fun- er... discuss them:
I believe that, if God actually existed, he'd only destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (spelling?) because he couldn't get any.

I found a quite interesting and amusing site:

www.geocities.com/ozheretic

I've just read the interview with Satan, about he once was the good god of the jews, and later exchanged roles with jahweh.

Well, here's another one:

www.lucifer.com/virus/virus.2Q99/2221.html

There's a short story of Arthur C. Clarke in it.

If Jesus never lived, who gave us the idea that it was better to love our enemies than hate them (not normally thought to have much survival value in evolutionary terms, perhaps)?