h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Wow. Has somebody been advertising us? It seems like every time I refresh the page another new member turns up. Welcome, She of the Frogs. The good news is that you're among like-minded life-musers and god-questioners. The not-so-good news is most of us are also confused about life in general, although not all perhaps quite so young as we might once have been...

Lear, I think there might be a vagueness problem with the idea of an ESS. It isn't clear what "dominated by" means in the phrase "a population dominated by the ESS". It could mean that all but one individual has that ESS, or all but a small proportion, or... If it means all but one individual then "always defect" is an ESS, but as you rightly point out, if small pockets of co-operation could form they could easily become dominant. Maybe it would make sense to say that tit-for-tat is a stronger ESS than "always defect" in some sense related to this vagueness?

"most of us are . . . not all perhaps quite so young as we might once have been... "

The backlog is too much to catch up on, so I will limp along from here...

B

Then pop in more often. I'm sure the exercise will help that limp....

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

It's a bit much for me as well, and I check by several times a day! I used to be able to keep up with this place...

Maybe it's because I have to spend too much time working on my dissertation. And speaking of which, here I go again

Hi She of the Frogs,

are you ready for some good news to end your confusion? Well, the news is that there is no single god, not one of the thousands mankind invented. The bad news is that in order to fully understand this, you'll have to throw away 80% of your knowledge. But as a reward your confusion ends and you are ready to understand reality.

Now that we've settled that, , we're ready for the next shock: there is no meaning of life. A meaning only makes sense if there is something for which it has meaning. For example, the meaning of your computer is to chat with us. Without you, it wouldn't have a meaning. That's why life has no meaning, there is nobody there besides life to whom it could have meaning.

I've written some entries to make my point. Please don't get angry at me in case you are not of the same opinion.

I'm a bit rusty on game theory, but IIRC all Nash equilibria are ESS?

How about a 'co-operation' game of the same format as the prisoner's dilemma but with the double co-operation pay-off as (say) 8,8?

This situation has two Nash equilibria at C,C and D,D. Which you find yourself in depends on what you believe your opponent will do.

If you have a blind game where there is a chance of either, then again there is a threshold between C,C and D,D, depending on the chances of either and what you believe the other guys does.

The dilemma tournament doesn't explain why 'suckers' persist in real life when they went out so quickly in the tournament; this sort of model seems slightly more realistic and gives an explanation of how 'suckers' could survive.

Sorry Wonko, I disagree. I'm not angry though, I really liked your explanation.

But, you say that 'A meaning only makes sense if there is something for which it has meaning.' and 'There is nobody there, besides life, to whom it could have meaning.' which doesn't add up to 'Life has no meaning'. It adds up to 'life kan only have meaning to life'. The meaning of _my_ life is enjoying myself as best I can.

I'm becoming interested in rerunning the tournament myself, with a blind mixed game as described before. Any suggestions for wild and wacky strategies gratefully accepted.

Oh, and welcome to She of the Frogs. I can see how God could exist, but I don't see that it has to exist, or that I should be offering worship if it did. Weeping statues and holy blood are among the things that convince me man is very good at inventing religion. This doesn't mean religion is wrong, just that there is no evidence it is right.

As far as I'm concerned, 'God' is just a manifestation of life in a gestalt fashion, so life only has meaning to itself as NAITA said.

again

B

<'God' is just a manifestation of life in a gestalt fashion, so life only has meaning to itself>

But 'meaning' only has meaning in the minds of living creatures, yes?

To me, God is an emergent property of life (all life, not any single life). Is that the same as what you said, MaW? I think it is....

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

Hi NAITA,

your conclusion is right, Life can only have a meaning to Life. Let's enjoy it !!!!

Now let's go deeper into that, can something have a meaning to itself? I'd think no, it always takes two: one to have a meaning and one to appreciate that. Otherwise its only existence. Its like communication: one sender and one receiver, talking to yourself doesn't count.

Now that we are at the core of the meta of philosophy, how about some help by the others?

Pattern-Chaser and MaW, so you say Life=God? We do we need new words, let's call Life just Life and forget this god fiction.

Yes, I thought that would be your position, I only nitpicked because your summary didn't makes it clear. I think that something can have meaning to itself. To a duck it's meaning is being a duck, to me it's meaning is being dinner.

Mmmm, duck.

And a little quote from Pratchett/Gaiman:
"God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time."

I must admit that I'm not smiling all the time, but my universe is bright and clear, as is my view of the world and mankind.

...I'm perfectly happy to know that there 'is' meaning that doesn't depend on my awareness or interpretation. For example, the way my friend experiences his life in another country has meaning that I can share by invitation, but much of that meaning remains unknown to me. Perhaps the notion that meaning only exists in the universe (or perhaps, the Multiverse ) because I bestow it contributes more to alienation than to a sense of belonging...

What I actually said was that God is an emergent property of all life. Just like consciousness is an emergent property of networked neurons. The two are not the same, IMO. , Wonko.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"