h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

i liked this article a lot, a real eye-opener...however, i have to say that its quite obvious that you favor the lifestyle or at least show a great interest in it. perhaps another standpoint should be taken...

such as the idea that most goths i know seem to be comforming in a way that is just different from the preppy conformers. just as the preps need their tech vests, the goths seem to need their dark make up and clothes. (can you tell i'm a teenager yet?) Goths also seem to think (pardon me for falling into stereotypes here, this is just my experience) that anyone not in dark attire must be a conformist and not worth talking to. I myself am most definitely not a conformist, though my clothes fail to show this. therefore i am often scoffed at by goths. it makes me sad.

needless to say, i have respect for them. i lose much of it, however, when i see a general lack of acceptance and excess of a superiority complex.

comments?

jen.

goth is a lifestyle choice, I mean how many "preps" (whaterver they are) do you see who are in 30's 40' or even in one case I am aware of 50's ?

(before you ask I'm early 30's, not a goth but I got a lot of goth friends & spend a lot of time hanging around the goth scene)

hi.

i understand the lifestyle choice and i respect it greatly.

i supposed i am biased because i am sixteen and only see the young, temporary, superficial goths.

i just wish they would stop assuming that i'm just another conformist zombie just because i look like everyone else. most seem to assume that if you don't look different, you must think/be like everyone else. my philosophy is that i can look normal and abnormal at the same time. i hate being laughed, mocked, or doubted just because i don't dress in black.

it is in this way that i call the goths psuedo-conformists; they have a group to call their own, and in that way i disagree that they are being individuals. what about people like myself, who have no group to model from?

again, please don't be offended. remember i am dealing with 14-18 year olds here. i'm positive that there are those out there that know better than to judge someone just because they don't look morose.

keep up the convo. i like it.

jen.

I think you will find one of the traits of gothdom is that they try to be non-judgmental.
Here in London theres a lot of crossover in the clubs that play to the alternative crowd, so you tend to find goths mixing with punks/mettlers/fettish etc, plus you get a healthy dose of tourist & 'normal' people who wander in by accident.

Hi there! And welcome to h2g2.

To answer your question: *Of course* the entry is biased!
Why? Well, to write an entry you need to have some preconception of the subject matter. If you do not have any pre-formed opinions chances are that you would not bother to come up with an entry on the subject. Generally one is either pro or conta a thing. There are one or two bits on Goth on this site, which are not really friendly. I happen to be part of the (German) scene and I like it (else I wouldn't be in that scene, not? ), that's why I write a biased and "Goth-is-good"-entry.
The question of conformity has been brought up in other discussions as well. While I have no idea what a prep is I safely assume that the range of different styles is larger with the Goth scene than with any/most other. Check out the links on my links page for some fashion examples http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A519716 .
Assuming that you are from the US of A (are you?), I might want to add that the Goths from there (Washington) I've had the pleasure to meet at this year's WGT said that the scene was for mor extreme here. (in whatever respect)

About being scoffed by them: The ones I know just ignore the ones they dislike. The active scoffing would mean an acknowledgemeent of the fact that the other matters at all But that might be different with younger people (my "Goth-peer-group" is 25+)

Else, I conform with Happy Dude (Hi! ).


Tube

in my experience most goths arent actually that judgemental ... well, they might be judgemental as in "he's a 16 yo in a band teeshirt - hes not a goth", but that wouldnt make them any less friendly.

However in and gruop of people you're going to get a few a**holes (dont know if we're alowed my normal colourful language in here!)...

Also if you wander into a club and are blatantly not a gothy type then people can be naturally be a bit wary, as drunk men who are only there to chat up the birds in PVC are understandably not welcomed!

*shrug*

or maybe I just know lots of nice people!

XXX

a toast to "lots of nice people"

Hey!

I didn't see your message up til today.

I understand about being biased now. It was basically my first day when I wrote that. Silly me! Young, foolish, and new.

But anyway, it's nice to see nice people in whatever form they choose to be in. I just wish other people would appreciate that!

Nighty night for now
(longer and more in depth conversation later...i'm tired!)
jen.

night

hey

I realise that this conversation is probably past its use-by date by now but I couldn't resist adding my thoughts.

I don't really think that goths are non-conformists because we still feel a need to be accepted by our social group. My gothic friends range from 17 to somewhere in their 40s and most of them are still concerned about what the rest of us think. Our parties are like fashion parades with both compliments and stealthy insults in abundance.

Of course, I suspect that my social group is not quite like most goth scenes.

Hi Drizzle and welcome to H2G2!


You'll find that discussions hardly ever reach a use-by date... in fact as soon as someone posts something new in a thread like this, the link to it jumps to the top of your "Most recent conversations"-list on your personal space (like this thread on my page http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/u55226). That way it's rather easy to keep track of what's going on. And chances are that others catch on to this new conversation.
From all the conversations related to this entry (and the previous ones) I learned that the scene is quite different all over the globe (esp. US vs. Europe). What's the go in NZ? Is the scene growing? Only Mansonites? Heaps of Romantic Goths? Domestic bands?
Anyway, I'm digressing.
Non-conformists? That depends! (Ooooh, I love that sentence! ) They/we certainly do not conform to non-Goths, but to a ceratain degree we conform to the scene, that's true. But than again there's a difference between the different "flavours of Goth", not?


Tube

Thank you

I can't give you a full idea about the goth scene in NZ because I only have experience with K.A.O.S (Killing As Organised Sport). However, to the best of my knowledge, the majority of gothy types are members of this club. There are sects of the club around NZ, based at Universities. I'm a member of the original and largest group. Not all of us are goths but there are a large amount who are. To get an idea you could go look around the clubs photo page (Thanks to a wonderful member who takes time out of parties to make sure all us vain and egotistical types can drool over photos) [URL removed by moderator]
There are a number of Mansonites and "High School Goths" (that term only means that they are a bunch of immature wannabes not anything against goths who are at high school) but I personally don't see them that often (except for the occasional person who wants to be cool and turns up to a KAOS party)

There are no, to my knowledge, gothic clubs. Some clubs might do occasional special nights but apart from that ...

I only know a few Romantic Goths as I think a mixture of fetish and industrial. I'm one of the few people who wear lacy things as the scene tends to lean toward pvc, velvet, leather and occasionally silk.

ALOT of NZ goths seem to be roleplayers. The majority of K.A.O.S around the country seem to play Vampyre: The Masquerade and The Changeling but nearly everyone roleplays in some game.

ummmm ... I can't really think of much more just yet.

Its such a pity that I only have a narrow viewpoint through lack of experience with other goths.

ahhh ... this was a long (and probably disjointed, repetitive and boring) post ... oops

Driz

see my previous comments on London goths

Hi Drizzle!
Yeah, I would suspect the NZ scene to be fairly small, I mean, Godzone's not really crowded, eh? Did you run into trouble with KAOS after the Littleton school shooting? I attracted one or two stupid comments at university...
I find it very interesting that the scene is apparently so different all over the world. Maybe we should have an entry for each country?
Yeah, the lack of Goth clubs... Well. there is one here which is Goth-only, but the music is too much EBM-ish for my taste. And the occasional black night at other clubs ... oh well.
Live music's big, though. Mila Mar in a couple of days and L'Ame Immortelle, Garden of Delight and Eisheilig in two weeks . And of course the festivals! (feel free to check out the links on my links-page http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A519716
Role playing: Yup, that's big over here as well.
And no, that post of yours sure wasn't boring/repetitive!

I shall be off to bed, methinks
TTFN
Tube

PS: Hey, Happy Dude! Seems like I'll be moving to London in the foreseeable future, maybe we meet in one of the clubs. Which ones would you recommend apart from Slimelight?

bst thing is to go drinking at the 'devonshire' in camden (corner of kentish town road & hawley cres, near MTV) & listen to the scuttlebut.

I think the scene here is surprisingly big considering the very small population.

I wasn't part of KAOS at the time of the shooting but my brother and I got comments like "Trench coat mafia". This was REALLY silly because at the time I was wearing a navy blue, wollen trenchcoat during winter (a sensible thing to wear during a NZ winter) and my brother was wearing a fairly common black waterproof trenchcoat that people wear when they are horseriding which seems to popular amongst most groups during winter.

KAOS has all but taken over one of the university bars. Its wonderful. All the engineering students are afraid to come in because they think its a gay bar. i don't know what their problem is ... just because you have same sex snogs in a bar doesn't mean that the bar is gay. KAOS tends to be very liberal although the majority of guys who snog other guys are straight (my boyfriend being a perfect example. He isn't even bi but he tends to spend more time snogging other guys then he does me ... lol) They just see it as fun.
That means that every friday night we have a bar basically to ourselves except for the more adventurous but they tend to be fun anyway.

I think the reply concerning "taking the club over and scaring away the engineering students" is right on (along with the others) To be goth, is to be disatisfied with the traditional world that the mainstream society tries to force on everyone. This may be religion, dress, job, life style.... whatever. Instead a goth takes these concepts and turns them upside down. We laugh as others wield idiot prejudices and stereotypes (gay, blood drinkers) and especially when they leave us alone to take over a club scene. Dark clothes or not, if your rebelling against main stream forced conformity society you should consider yourself a goth. Goths find each other and conform a bit together because many do want to belong to somewhere.... just not the somewhere that is the main stream confming becuase you have to. The conforming is a choice and the individual adjust their own style to represent themselves as much as possible while still dissing the main stream. Many young goths who act pretentious haven't quite figured out how to be comfortable in the new "skin". it sounds like the 16yr old goth/but not goth is more comfortable and understands already of what it means to be goth. It takes time to understand what and why you are doing something. Sometimes it just feels right. I'm sure most goths have a high sensitivity to feeling.

These are my observations: Jefree (Age 30 Goth)

Again, I pretty much agree with you, Jefree.
With all the stereotype I've been faced with, I never encountered "gay" (discounting a four-year-old in the subway who asked "Are they getting married?" ). Sadly enough, here the clubs are overtaken by non-goths. The scene in this city is rather small. I went 150 kilometers (one way) to a decent disco in December... just to have the feeling that I'm underdressed
"Dark clothes or not, if your rebelling against main stream forced conformity society you should consider yourself a goth". The mindset is still necessary, I feel. But yes, that's the Punk root showing.

Myself, I found the scene after I aquired the mindset/ideas behind Goth. For me it felt like coming home to what I'd been looking for the last years.

This article comments on one side of the "Goth scene" (I hate that phrase) very thoroughly and accurately. Because it is a social group, however, there will always be different factions that seem to have been overlooked. A quick glance around any Metal/Goth gig will let you see the greater part wearing all black, its undeniable but there are exceptions. Generally speaking, a goth can wear anything, from black leather to bright pink fur ruffs. There always has to be an element there which separates a goth from anyone else though and that is usually an air of sinisterness.

Being a goth is a way of life but as one of the building blocks of the goth movement was “do what you want to do”, you can never really be accused of selling out (obvious exceptions apply to this – anyone turning up to a Cradle of Filth gig wearing a Britney Spears shirt deserves what they get for sheer stupidity value) and if any Goths scoff at you for wearing all black, they are probably wannabies.